Village Web Site Forum

paul watson
The Hawthorns Sutton
Thursday, October 9, 2008 18:12
if nobody can come up with a better proposal for a tagline, No Over-Development In South Craven then i think we should go with that thanks to Dennis.

Basil as you have already done it, can you come up with a flyer format just leaving the blanks for the date and time, we need to consider those that may think "it wont affect me" we have to point out traffic schools medical etc.

Phil can you design a logo of N.O.D.I.S.C. thanks i have a couple of sign banners from my shop which i can get printed up once we have a design

can we have volunteer street walkers with a list of streets they are prepared to deliver to please register on the back of this string

anybody know a bumper sticker/window sticker manufacturer.

any volunteers for a front man (preferably experience with the press)

any more sugestions?

Together we will be stronger
Thursday, October 9, 2008 19:07
Paul, Id be happy to create another flyer, I am also a graphic designer so I could also knock up a possible logo too? if Phil does a couple and I do too then there is more choice. If ayone else doesnt step up to the front man role then I do actualy have a lot of experience with press campaigns check out " BAZZZMAN+bbc" on google to see my last campaign . I released a record on our label for a tramp who was homless for thirty years and managed to get him rehoused after the BBC, Channel 5, Sky, The London evening Standard, the Manchester Eveing news, and even ARD Germany came on board as a result of my press release. Im not sure how interested they would be in this story but we could certainly examine the possible angles on it. I believe that any front man would need to either be extremely knowledgable on the entire context of the plans OR be very well advised on what line he should be taking. There are a couple of natural options , in particular I was very impressed with Joe Bamford ( Bamforth?) Who called for resignations. I further met hm today and he is clearly an impressive speaker. The other choice of course would be Steve Place but I do not know if this is something he would like to do. I will give this some thought but an immediate idea for a flyer would be to emphasise that public opinion and questions are crucial to this debate and maybe on the flyer we could display a collection of some of the stronger and noteworthy 1 liner question that have so far emerged that provoke serious controversy. Then we could emphasise the impotance of public attendence to the next meeting and welcome peoples questions and any other opinions that they would like to deliver. We are now locked into a public debate and so the natural approach should be to allow that to crescendo at the seminar. Any more ideas? Meanwhile I will try a couple of ideas for the NODISC logo too. ( inbetween other commitments!) I am also a little worried that we could actualy do an overkill on this too, I would like to take some advice personaly on the political ramifications of last night and the likely state of play from now on wards in order to fully understand whether our strategy is definitely the correct one.
James wood
Thursday, October 9, 2008 21:41
I`m happy to deliver flyers
Thursday, October 9, 2008 22:18
I have put the general feelings into a little poem called The Village Plea!

They are our little villages
and we love them so.
They want to build all over them,
we all shout ‘Oh No!’.
The councillors have heard us cry,
‘this, it cannot be!’
‘Don’t destroy our countryside’,
‘don’t fell every tree!’
Sutton, Crosshills, Glusburn,
please leave us as we are.
Don’t build all the houses,
For workers from afar!

Thursday, October 9, 2008 22:18
i've done a logo and an A4 black and white flyer.

No offence basil, but we haven't really got the luxury of time to discuss the fineries of typography and semiology, we just need to let people know what's going on. a vote on a design would take at least one day, and that's a day lost.

there's a reason councils and organisations call meetings quickly and quietly. It's because they assume that people cannot mobilise and organise in time.

I suggest that we print this flyer and get it to as many houses as possible. it's an a4 pdf format so maybe a few people could do some prints. it's black and white so to be as cheap to make as possible.

My suggestion is that we get this flyer out asap, and i'll do a second one to jog people's memories that could go out on tuesday or wednesday. People have lives, commitments, there's a weekend on the way and that's the best time to get people as they're at home talking to neighbours and such, not tired after a day at work.

I'll also sort a version of the logo out for whoever wants to get it printed or banners made.

the link to the 4.8mb pdf (print quality, the maps on it and detail is important)
Thursday, October 9, 2008 22:50
oh, and if you print it out and your printer misses the bottom line off, just make sure 'fit to page' is selected when you print.
Thursday, October 9, 2008 22:54
Excellent job Phil, you dont mess around mate! I reckon that should do it! I had a chat with Joe Bamforth tonight and he could well be the right man for the front man position. Im meeting with him tomorrow and will start a media campaign ASAP. I will print off a hundred of these tomorrow and will distribute around the village accordingly too.
paul watson
The Hawthorns Sutton
Thursday, October 9, 2008 23:18
great job phil. like it. havnt managed to get craven herald yet so is that the real date and venue then? if is i will cover hawthorns, manse way estate romorow night and my father can canvess the clayton hall road estate.
paul watson
The Hawthorns Sutton
Thursday, October 9, 2008 23:42
oops sorry just found it on the forum thanks
Friday, October 10, 2008 08:23
Guys i will cover the station road area of crosshills. I will print of the flyer and go round tonight and over the weekend. Did a little walking last night, not surprised to find no one knew anything about it and if they did, not the facts and all were stunned.

Keep up the good work and lets hope south craven school is packed next thursday. I know someone who works at the council offices. The feeling from the council thursday morning was one of shock and horror at the reaction and feeling from the previous nights meeting. That will be nothing compared to the next meeting i am sure and if they manage to have no commonsense and vote it through what the council have to remember is they have to leave that room through a gauntlet of very angry people.

One other point, appaently on Northern Rails web site is a strategic plan for our rail line, which does include a stn in crosshills, but only if the council improve the roads, no improvment no stn. Also they have in the plan no intention of running trains from Skipton to Leeds in busy times, they will run shuttle trains from Skipton to Keighley every 10mins, then you get the train to Leeds from there. They tried the 8 carriage train and could only get it to fit on 4 stns. If someone has the time to find the whole report maybe worth taking to the meeting, or if someone works for Northern Rail and can get a copy.
Neville and Liz Kildunne
Friday, October 10, 2008 10:07
Brilliant effort everyone, some of you must never sleep! We have printed out the flyer (excellent job) and will distribute between 500 - 1000 starting from the Rupali Indian Takeaway. We'll hopefully cover every house up to the post office at least (including the new estate where Silentnight once was), up to and including around the Park will be our ultimate aim.

We'll try and print more if possible, if anyone is willing but doesn't have copies let me know and I'll get some to you.
Ravenstone Gardens, Sutton-in-Craven
Friday, October 10, 2008 11:43
Where do I print to flyer from please?
Ravenstone Gardens, Sutton-in-Craven
Friday, October 10, 2008 11:46
found it thanks
Friday, October 10, 2008 11:53
I worked last night to the early hours to produce a second flyer aimed at reminding the public of the seminar around Tuesday of next week. I developed the logo into something a little more recognisable and also made this flyer less official looking and more emotive. I think that provoking the emotions of the public will be crucial at that stage. I will post a link to the flyer once I put it onto our server. I will print and distribute these personaly. Paul this flyer also takes the angle that you originaly mentioned and is raising the key questions of medical, schooling, floods etc... I also met with Joe Bamford today and I suggest tha he is a very good front man for the NODISC campaign. I am now preparing a press release and will provoke initial press interest for NODISC later today. Will keep you posted.
Friday, October 10, 2008 12:47
i have already distributed the N.O.D.I.S.C flyer this morning to the pavilion, local pubs and businesses.
Recognition occurs with frequent viewing, to chance the logo now will inevitabley make it less recognisable in my opinion.
Friday, October 10, 2008 12:47
bazza, i think you're in danger of solving a problem that doesn't exist. at lest in terms of branding. this isn't the launch of a multi national corporation, it's a community led action group.

in design/marketing terms, the second flyer needs to reference the first, using the same logo, typeface etc, or it will seem to those not in the know that it is two separate groups.

the logo as is serves a purpose, and while i don't have the time to go into huge detail - the more uber professional it looks, the less likely people are to join in, as the impression one gives is that 'we're so together we don't need help'.

too many cooks spoil the broth, and does the flyer need ot be 'emotive'? if the subject matter doesn't work then you can have pictures of a builder stamping on baby seals and drowning kittens and it still won't matter.

i agree that the issues need to be addressed, and would be happy to design the second (as offered originally) with those issues on as a 'call to action' for the meeting.

sorry if i seem harsh or dismissive of the time and effort put in, but as someone who has worked in marketing, publishing and pr across europe, for both mnc's and community action groups, it's my opinion that different flyers and different messages going out at the same time would be counter productive to our cause.
Friday, October 10, 2008 12:58
i have already distributed the N.O.D.I.S.C flyer this morning to the pavilion, local pubs and businesses.
Recognition occurs with frequent viewing, to chance the logo now will inevitabley make it less recognisable in my opinion.
We dont have time for this.
Friday, October 10, 2008 13:02
carol, my wife, has tried posting this, but it didn't work so emailed me here at work:

"I have already distributed the N.O.D.I.S.C flyer this morning to the pavilion, local pubs and businesses.

Recognition occurs with frequent viewing, to chance the logo now will inevitabley make it less recognisable in my opinion.

We dont have time for this."
Liz K
Friday, October 10, 2008 13:36
Hi all. My husband posted a message this morning but its not showing yet. We have printed off 2000 fliers and will start posting round the village tonight. We intend to do from the Rupali through to the park. We'll start about 6-ish tonight from the Rupali area, so if anyone can help or wants some fliers, please accost us on the streets. (We live at Ravenstone Gardens)
Graham Wild
Friday, October 10, 2008 13:55
Hi, sent this message this morning but didnt get on the site. I have printed off 70 copies of the flyer and will go up station road in Crosshills tonight. Went round a few houses last night and surprise surprise no one knew anything about it.

Also if someone has the time apparantly on Northern Rail website is the strategic plan for the Airedale line stating no stn at crosshills until roads improved and a shuttle service from Skipton to Keighley in peak periods then train to Leeds from Keighley, not 8 carriage trains from Skipton to Leeds as they dont fit the platforms. The shuttle train would be every 10mins in peak times. May be worth having a copy of this for Thursdays meeting so we can show the council cannot dangle the stn carrot.
Debbie and Michelle
Friday, October 10, 2008 15:09
We have made a start at Glusburn school with leaflets today, and are happy to mail-drop Harper Grove, Avondale, Greenroyd Drive, Park Avenue, and Park Drive between us.
Neville Kildunne
Friday, October 10, 2008 15:27
Dear Administrator,

Please publish my offer of supplying flyers to anyone who doesn't have access to a copying machine - I sent the offer this morning! Time is running out.


Neville Kildunne
Friday, October 10, 2008 16:06
Hi, Great job Phil your instructions for print worked atreat, printed my self a copy correctly first attempt.

Paul Wilkinson
Friday, October 10, 2008 16:07
Apologies to those who experienced a delay in their posts appearing. I've been out of the county today and didn't have access to a computer.
Friday, October 10, 2008 16:13
Hi Paul, are you the paul that is also Callum's Dad? Apologies If I've got the wrong Paul Watson!.
Paul Wilkinson
Friday, October 10, 2008 16:39
Just to avoid confusion, there are two Pauls - Paul the webmaster and Paul Watson.
Friday, October 10, 2008 16:57
Thank you for clarifying but it was the post from "paul watson" I was referring to.
Liz K
Friday, October 10, 2008 19:24
Hi Guys.
NODISC posted from Rupali end of Sutton, along Main Street, all round terraces on left and right and Park Drive to left. Started on Park Avenue but met up with someone who'd already done it. Then did Ash Grove, Elm Grove, all big houses that are opposite park, Didn't get as far as North Parade. Also did new estate (old Silent Night), Gatering Lane, Hall Lane (the one with the castle gate entrance). All houses leading upto Clough, met Phil who was covering West Lane.
Need to do houses past Kings Arms (heading towards Ellers) that front onto main road. Also need to do South View, North View, Cedar Grove, etc and estate that comes off South View (sorry guys, don't know what its called). Need to do opposite side of village - houses over bridge going towards Crosshills and Manse Way (But I think someone said they would do it?) Also need to do terraces and houses (farm conversion) closest to South Craven.
We have about 1000 leaflets left - anyone who wants some just let us know, we can drop some round. Any that we don't use in Sutton will go into Crosshills. Maybe Eastburn too?
Response very good - the village is talking about it so here's hoping for a good turnout for Thursday.
paul watson
The Hawthorns Sutton
Friday, October 10, 2008 19:53
manse estate,off holme lane hawthorns and copse doin at 9 tonight
Friday, October 10, 2008 20:25
Phil your comments have been noted but without getting possessive about who does what I think if we all do our bit then this will work out good anyway. Nice credentials bye the way, I presently run a record label, a multinational design operation, I am a technology innovator/consultant for Nettellics who presently hold several contracts with NATO and governements across the world, I am currently working with the London MET on a new server evidence server technology I invented and more appropriately I have been commissioned with branding over 500 companies world wide in terms of logo creation. More recently I lead a local campaign to rehouse a man in London which was picked up by BBC, Channel 5, Sky, The London evening standard, the big issue and even ARD germany who aired my campaign across Europe. I think I know a thing or two about marketing, design and running press campaigns too. I recommend that the NODISC logo be improved for compatibilty with press agencies, news wires, fringe publications and political commentary channels. The more professional we look the better for this purpose. I have already circulated an updated logo to over 20 press people today within the press release announcing Joe Bamford as the spokeman for NODISC. My worry about the present design of the fantastic" quickie " flyer is that it may possibly be overlooked by some as it may well look a little too official. I love it but the The map makes it look like a council flyer to some extent at first glance especialy since its A4 poster size. . I Believe that a more emotive flyer in the same style as the Lord Kitchener flyer I put all round the Village during the week will also reach an additional element of our local society that may have been missed by this flyer. Do you think thats possible Phil? I think all flyers are good and I commend you Phil on all your efforts, but please do not put me down or belittle me as I am also capable of helping too, There are no leaders here, just a group of concerned citizens all trying to do their bit. Please let us cease this bickering and go forward positively please. The updated logo I circulated with my press release today is here. There is also a second flyer in a different format for those who wish to print it off after the weekend. I will print and circulate it from Monday onwards. The link to download is If anyone wishes to use it for anything else please feel free. The flyer is a4 Landscape and will print fine if you have ink. You will need to cut them in half with scissors to make them A5.
Friday, October 10, 2008 20:42

Would it be OK to use the NODISC logo to promote your cause on our website? (Linked to your forums of course).

Friday, October 10, 2008 21:26

basil, may i have your email address please?
Webmaster's Secretary!!
Friday, October 10, 2008 21:44
The webmaster is currently unavailable, but I am sure he would have no objections to Martin's request.
Friday, October 10, 2008 21:57
We use Basil's logo? OK, on our site in the next few minutes, linked back as promised, and wishing you guys all the best. Just hope the plan doesn't get pushed 'upstream'.

I guess the webmaster is in the pub? Best place to be.

Martin Watson.
Saturday, October 11, 2008 01:55
Webmastrer please would you be kind enough to forward my email adress to Phil.
Many thanks
Liz K
Saturday, October 11, 2008 07:04
Guys, lets not fight, we need to stand together. Scrapping amongst ourselves isn't going to help our cause.
It doesn't really matter at this stage what the flier/logo looks like, we just need to get the message across to all residents that they need to be at the meeting at South Craven at 6.30pm on Thursday.
Also, regarding a spokesperson, Joe Bamford (th?) was superb at the Council meeting, but I think we should come at it from more angles than the financial/political side - couldn't we get the guy from Glusburn (stood near the Planning Director at the meeting) or maybe the first guy from Sutton (sorry I can't recall names) to put across the emotive/residents point-of-view (traffic, schools, environmental aspect, merging of villages, etc, etc). I thought they both made really good points which dealt more with the "ordinary mand in the street's feelings on this." We should get all angles covered.
TV Coverage would be great too.
Graham Smith
Glusburn (ex Suttoner)
Saturday, October 11, 2008 07:23
thanks for the NODISC link to the flyers i have printed 50 out and will distribute in the Green Lane Area of Glusburn
i could not believe last fridays herald page 9 about the council set to backtrack over the proposed development in Glusburn
the council are not to contest the appeal after a "secret meeting"
in july at south craven school in front of 200 people the reason for refusual was robust
we need a full explanation from the council about this so called secret meeting and why they have suddenly changed their minds
i will be at thursdays meeting
Great campaign you have going on this site.
regards Graham
i rung councillor barratt up regarding Green Lane and he said its the full plan for 74 dwellings they are not contesting(the planning commitee) not a smaller version.
has anyone mentioned to look north, calendar news etc about the proposed 2000 homes for this area
Janet Hargreaves
Saturday, October 11, 2008 07:29
Congratulations to you all for trying to preserve the village as a village. I was horrified when I read of the Councils intentions. My observation on a recent visit to Sutton was that it was obvious that it was already becoming a commuter village due to the demise of the mills and their conversion from business to housing premises.
This plan may support the Governments 'must build more houses' aim but if everyone then has to commute to work, it goes against their 'green' ethos (more traffic/more greenhouse emmisions)and will eventually will destroy the heart of the village as commuting residents will not participate in local activities.
I am not in a position to help but I totally support your efforts. Several generations of my family lived in the village, over hundreds of years and I personally lived there for many years, only leaving for work and family reasons.
As I do not live in the village I cannot be regarded as a NIMBY (not in my backyard) opposer to the plan!
I hope you succeed in your challenge.
Saturday, October 11, 2008 08:13
liz, i agree completely.

basil, i'm not saying this because of any other reason than it needs sorting, but can you change the word 'peacful' to peaceful on the very bottom of the flyer. then they can be used. :D
Graham Smith
Glusburn (ex Suttoner)
Saturday, October 11, 2008 08:21
just to let you know i have emailed calendar news and look north about the situation. and also just got back from delivering over 50 flyers in the Green Lane area of Glusburn
having lived in sutton for 24 years and Glusburn for the last 20 years i am horrified at the plans for the villages
i urge as many people as possible to attend the meeting at south craven school this thursday
i am thinking of emailing the national press. do you think i should?
who is going to be the speaker for the public this thursday
Saturday, October 11, 2008 10:07
hi, spoke to a news editor at calendar this morning who has promised to look into this. have e-mailed him the flyer.
Liz K
Saturday, October 11, 2008 13:24
Fliers posted on Saturday - done Holme Lane, Boundary Avenue, Holme Farm, Watson St, Jackson St, Wighill St, Bridge Road. Can't do any more today but will have another go tomorrow. Keep up with the thread.
Saturday, October 11, 2008 15:10
Phil, I am definitley up for optimizing " peaceful" Well spotted ! My spelling is very bad in general! I have re-uploaded the zip and it now contains the revised flyer, the logo and also the press release I sent out to around 20 newsdesks. download here:

The news people I sent out to were as follows:

I also contacted Look North, BBC Radio Yorkshire and the Yorkshire Press. There were one or two others that I cant remember.

If anyone wishes to use the press release I created to contact more news people then this would be fantasic! the more outward bound communication the better! Liz If you can get the man you saw to communicate with us directly here or in email to me I will hook him up with Joe Bamford and I will feature them both on which I am currently building. ( I realised it would be sensible for us to have a NODISC website. This web site should be completed by tomorrow. Phil I would love your eye for detail on this, would you be up for helping me to develop it? I will arrange server space on it through our hosting company and will get it online shortly. I will need text for it for the knowledge base page. Could anyone possibly put a short explanation of the Growth point bid and ramifications into a word or TXT doc? I am simply not informed enough to do this. Any ideas anyone?
Saturday, October 11, 2008 15:22
no problems basil.

just one thought my wife had when reading the flyer, maybe if we were to change the 'we won' bit to something like 'we can still win'. she thought that if the second flyer says 'we won' then those people who might not have given the first flyers much thought might well assume that the fight is over.

i know you make it clear on the rest of the flyer, but sometiumes people will be skimming the flyer, rather than reading it properly. just a thought.

for reasons of biase and imbalance, i can't do this, but if someone drops an email to '' then it will get to my editor who may be able to feature the campaign on his blog. the magazines are printed 6 weeks in advance so getting topical things covered is a bit tricky.

as for the website, i'm in the middle of a major build for a group of labels, but some time could probably be freed up to lend a hand if you'd like.

my email is if you want to sling over the press release, logo etc.
Saturday, October 11, 2008 15:23
just re-read your post - will download.
Debbie and Michelle
Saturday, October 11, 2008 15:43
Harper Grove, Park Avenue, Greenroyd Drive and Dovelands (not Avondale!!??!!) have now been leafleted. Michelle will cover Glusburn School on Monday. I believe Black Abbey Lane in Glusburn has also been leafleted. Keep up the good work everybody!!
Saturday, October 11, 2008 16:21
hi basil, i do subediting and copy checking for work, so i went through your release and have made a few suggestions. All the bases were covered but we get a fair few releases at work, so have just jiggled it about a bit for lazy journalists. ,)

They're just suggestions, not criticisms of a good job.

On October 8th 2008 an extraordinary council meeting took place at the Craven council offices at Granville Street Skipton.

This meeting took ill-prepared councillors completely by surprise as up to two hundred angry residents arrived to demand answers as to why the radical regional development plan for two thousand new homes (The Leeds City Growth Point Plan) was seemingly deliberately kept from local residents in a complete lack of local government transparency.

Scuffles broke out after councillors tried to have some of the more vocal residents removed from a packed chambers.

The plan threatens to destroy rural societies across the whole of South Craven resulting in major upheaval and the loss of stability and harmony that would arrive with the new proposed developments to many Yorkshire villages.

The growth point bid promises to see a government investment of up to £40m into financing the expansion of Leeds city outwards, to a 20 mile radius, allowing housing for 350,000 new jobs planned for Leeds city centre. Whilst the investment would usually be welcomed from an area already stretched in service provision of schools, medical and doctors surgeries, an already congested road system and other public services, the money is earmarked for housing and basic infrastructure only and will not be enough to add improvements to exisiting services. The fact being that it is environmentally and economically unfeasible and unsustainable forced growth, impacting upon thousands of residents that have not been appropriately consulted.

Details of the plans emerged after leaders of the council attempted to rush an approval for the plans through with a quick vote. Local Councillors were given only 5 minutes to study a huge dossier outlining the entire growth point strategy. Three councillors were appalled by this apparent fiasco and lack of electoral accountability and so forced a public meeting.

At the meeting, councillors conceded that whilst they believed the public consultation process had occurred, the only notice of this planning meeting was in the Council Chambers themselves, and had not been appropriately advertised.

At Wednesdays extraordinary meeting a leading local resident – Joe Bamford , spokesperson for No Overdevelopment in South Craven (N.O.D.I.S.C.) demanded resignations from incompetent councillors behind the bungled planning and consultation process. When challenged by the Chair Mr Bamford replied “Madam speaker, if the councillors in question are confident that what they are doing is right and proper, they will be re-elected soon enough.”

Mr Bamford is spokesperson for a group fighting to have the growth point plans abandoned in favour of a local framework infrastructure development plan, which would allow for growth in a sustainable way sympathetic to the needs of the local population’s needs.

Wednesdays meeting was abandoned and a public debate was agreed before the council reconvene to discuss the bid and vote on the region’s future.

Public consultation is due to take place for Sutton in craven on Thursday 16th Oct at 6:30 pm at South Craven School, Sutton in Craven. Residents will finally get the chance to tackle the planners on key questions regarding the plans to build 2000 new houses in Craven over the next 6 yrs.

Common concerns include issues on:
· Flooding – The majority of new housing is proposed to take up floodplains and are surrounded by areas known to have severe flooding issues
· Schooling - With good local schools already stretched, how will the new influx effect the current school infrastructure?
· Medical services – Would medical services be moved further away from the elderly and those in need?
· Traffic and Parking – Already dealing with congestion and heavy traffic, and plans to close roads, used by HGVs, into the area, how will an area already gridlocked and in dire need of parking cope?
· Crime and Policing – Any large number of people needs the support and presence of the Police Service. Will the right provisions be made to allow the Police Service what it needs?

For more information in regards to this developing story and to arrange interviews with Joe Bamford please call the N.O.D.I.S.C press officer Basil Simonenko:

Tel: 01535 630 109

Mob: 07828 014 690
Ravenstone Gardens, Sutton-in-Craven
Saturday, October 11, 2008 17:53
Craven District Council think that if they stretch things out long enough we will all simmer down and cave in. They think that if they give us two more meetings to go to, to discuss these dreadful proposals interest will fade and the numbers will dwindle. NO CHANCE!! After the forum (lets call it what it is, it's a public meeting) at South Craven School on Wednesday 15th October, no matter what is said it is really important that we all go to the Craven District Council Meeting on Wednesday 22nd October. Numbers count. Never mind 7.30ish. Something as important as this should be on the Agenda as an important issue and not be put at the end of business. We should all be there at 6.30 at the beginnig of the meeting. Don't let them work it to us again. They have tried to get this through behind our backs before. They might try it again. Who knows? Don't give them any opportunity to do it again..
Ravenstone Gardens, Sutton-in-Craven
Saturday, October 11, 2008 18:08
Saturday, October 11, 2008 18:13
Good amandments Phil, Il change that ASAP but first can somone confirm if the meeting at South Craven school is on wed 15th or Thurs 16th ? and is the time 7:30 or is it 6:30 ? Once I know this for sure we can ammend the press release accordingly.
Melvyn Marchant
Ravenstone Gardens, Sutton-in-Craven
Saturday, October 11, 2008 18:33
To Phil, re:your message of 11th October timed 17.21pm..."scuffles broke out..." I'm an old resident of Sutton, I don't know who you are mate or whether or not you were at the meeting in Skipton last Wednesday evening? I was, scuffles did not break out at any any point in the evening. This is just the kind of publicity that we do not want!!! Perhaps we should all ensure that in this forum, all facts are correct, and that brain is engaged before mouth or typing fingers are put into operation. CDC profilers will have a field day with these sort of cock-up's.

It's a favour. Best regards.
Saturday, October 11, 2008 19:15
Dear Melvin,

That did not come from Phil origionaly, it came from me. Id like to ask you something. were you everywhere at all times on Wednesday? I am interested in finding outhow you arrive a the conclusion that there were no sciuffles? Have you reviewed CCTV coverage to know for sure? if not then Id be happy to point out to you on the footage if it actualy exists what I believe constitued a "scuffle" and I have fully researched the meaning of the word " scuffle" on several reputable English language research mediums. It would realy help our cause if this particular part of the facts were to blow up larger so would you like to continue this debate? I certainly would.
Sunday, October 12, 2008 02:48
Over the last 24 hours I worked to design a NODISC website. Now we have an official website here If anyone has any ideas for ways to make it more effective for what we are trying to achieve then please do let me know. As it is I believe it does serve to be a good starter at informing people. In particular the knowledgbase page is an important one. I was actualy pretty shocked at some of the stuff I uncovered while look ing for worthy links to include.
Paul Wilkinson
Sunday, October 12, 2008 10:16
Great site Basil and a stunning logo, but I've got to support Melvyn's comments here.

Scuffles didn't break out. Yes, there was an incident where you were threatened with being thrown out but it wasn't by any stretch of the imagination a "scuffle", the primary definition of which is "A rough disorderly struggle at close quarters". Even conceding it was a scuffle, it should be correctly described as "a scuffle", not "scuffles".

Also, I'd say there were between 80 and 100 people at the meeting, which was reported as "up to 100" in the Craven Herald. Bigging it up further to "up to 200" could result in losing credibility.

On your site you have a link to details of Skipton Town Councillors - it would also be useful to link to details of Craven District Councillors, which can be found at the by clicking on Residents/ Council and Democracy/ 30 Councillors.

link to CDC page of 30 Councillors

Your enthusiasm is truly inspirational and the campaign is building up a lot of support but we need to make sure it's taken forward in the right way.

Just my thoughts anyway.
Sunday, October 12, 2008 11:05
Thanks for the positive comments Paul. I take the point on the numbers but that was my opinion, It seemed that way to me in the chambers! At best it may be an exaggeration Also, I am not refering to me being threatened with physical assault, There was another incident afterwards which was physical. You obviously missed it along with Melvyn. The incidentto which I refer involved me shaking a certain councillors hand and him squeezing my hand so hard it felt like he was attempting to break it. I did ask him if he fancied himself as a gangster and asked him why he was trying to break my hand. When I tried to release the handshake I actualy couldnt. He then continued to hold on to me and began calling me sunshine at which time I asked him to not patronise me. He did it again and at this point I felt very intimmidated and pulled my hand away hard and backed off rather quickly almost knocking over an old lady. This was certainly a rough disordely struggle at close quarters for me and certainly for the old lady too. Paul I will update the links page as you mentioned, thanks for that.
Sutton in Craven
Sunday, October 12, 2008 13:04
Gentlemen, please do not waste any more time about minor points re the council meeting or which poster should be used etc. You have all been working very hard and thank you for that, but everyone must put up a united front and keep any niggles off the website, say them face to face if there is a need. Remember, if we can see this, so can the people who want the building to go ahead and they will use any means they can to push this plan through. Reference, the field next to the Baptist Chapel 316/8 on the plan. Was that not where all the plague victims of the area were buried a few hundred years ago? If so that makes it at least a burial ground and an archaeological site.
Peter Drake
Sunday, October 12, 2008 13:40
As a new supporter of the NODISC campaign (and knowing little beyond what your flyers and Forum tell me) I must support the comment made earlier by Melvyn. To have a maximum effect we must portray an image which is serious, sober, very committed and be accurate in all our pronouncements. We must focus resolutely on the major arguments we are deploying and avoid at all costs being drawn into debates about minor matters such as the "scuffle" discussion.

I hesitate to criticise someone who has already contributed so much to the campaign and who I hope will continue to do so, however Basil, your comments on the 12th seem to me to border on the paranoid and are therefore not helpful to the cause. Finally if a fellow supporter gains this impression what will our opponents think ?
Dawn - Sutton Pavilion
Sunday, October 12, 2008 13:53
Well said David/Margaret and Peter Drake! I completely agree with all these comments and hope we can stick to hard facts - we have so much support, we do not need to resort to exageration!

On the point regarding Thompson's field and the question of burial ground, I have been looking at this site's very own HISTORY section (scroll to the top and check it out!).

Written by Nellie Stell in 1927......

"23. Old Jenkins

These terrible scourges must have caused great terror among the people. But great as the fear must have been, it is difficult to believe the traditional Sutton story of Old Jenkins and his wife.

It is said that the old couple had been ill for some time with a kind of fever. At first the neighbours did what they could for them. As the weeks grew into months, however, and the old man and his wife showed no signs of improvement, an uneasy feeling began to grow intvillagers' minds. Stories of past plagues were whispered. Tales of the sufferings of the victims were told, and memories of whole families being swept away were brought back. At last the fears of the neighbours turned to panic, and it is said, they took the old man and his wife and buried them alive in the field by the Holme Bridge. The field is still known as Jenkins Hole."
Melvyn Marchant
Ravenstone Gardens, Sutton-in-Craven
Sunday, October 12, 2008 17:39
Thank-you webmaster, just a concerned "Grandad" passing experienced comment. Best wishes to Phil and all.
Sunday, October 12, 2008 20:08
some of the proposed sites are good places to build new houses
Sunday, October 12, 2008 22:35
I am well aware that people think Im OTT. People have been telling me this and that what people are saying about me all week. What a chatty little community we are!!! My aim is to get this situation some press attention. I know how to play that game do a google search for BAZZZMAN+bbc and take a look what happened last time I did a little exxagerating and got a little OTT! On that occaision I managed to get a man rehoused after 30 years on the streets. That story was all over Europe. Now once and for all. THERE WAS A SCUFFLE. Now can we move on?
If the good folk of Sutton ( I love all I have met) are not happy for me to continue my efforts then please tell me. I do not wish to offend anyone at all. And if that is the case then I will go back to writing music for charities and save up to move out of this overcrowded eco town in 5 yrs time! . If you accept my flambouyant nature, my bullish attitude , my never ending commitment and enthusiasm, oh and my artistic temperament then let me know that too and Il be as powerful as I can be for the cause. Right now Im feeling attacked, hurt and a little rejected so please do put me out of my misery one way or the other.
Sunday, October 12, 2008 22:50
i believe it takes all angles for a campaign to work. If everyone follows protocol and is calm and keeps the talk pleasant and mellow then you will not be heard. Press will only listen if there is drama to write, it is better to be heard with a little exaggeration (exaggeration is still the truth but will create controversy which the press love) than not to be heard at all and for the story to be kept quiet. This would be great for the council if the story could be kept quiet. Are the council following protocol?

If everyone followed protocol in a campaign then we would all be paying poll tax right now

Monday, October 13, 2008 00:35
basil, it would seem that a number of people would like the 'scuffle' bit removed from the press release and the numbers revised.

this being a democratic group then i'd personally suggest removing it and moving on to the next issue.

i suggest replacing it with:

"This meeting took ill-prepared councillors completely by surprise as chambers brimmed over with residents arriving to demand answers as to why the radical regional development plan..."

also, if i may offer a few other suggestion on the tone and pace of the 'campaign'.

Thanks to EVERYONE's efforts we've managed to inform, thus far, 90% if not more of the residents on what's actually happening by mailshot, and all the other people through craven website, here and the nodisc site. This is fantastic. Democracy can't work without being informed. Now, at least they're better informed than they would have been.

However, some people may take a little time to care, to feel that they may have a voice or want to get involved. Any kind of aggresion will not attract the majority of people to the cause. Lots of people, generally, don't like making a fuss, especially with councils and offical bodies, because the beaurocracy scares them off, or simply the fact they don't believe they can change anything.

These people need cajolling and encouraging, not met with blustering and shouting. It doesn't instill confidence, it just worries people.

We've told the residents and are making in-roads to the press. If we are found to be excaggerating, then yes, we may get a quick story, once, but as local papers and very local media are already covering it, and you'd pretty much have to have someone kidnapped to get into look north/calendar etc, then if the we need them later on then we'll have lost credibility. Let's not cry wolf. The issue of development may not be a short one, this could go on for a while.

If residents see things are exaggerated, they won't believe us again either. Until the bulldozers drive in. People are a lot more cynical than they used to be.

It's not about toeing the line or following protocol, it's as much about playing them at their own game, because if you can beat them at their own rules, they can't get out of it as easily. The time for digging trenches in the fields may yet come, so let's keep the fighting talk till then eh?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I don't think people's credentials matter, as no-one is above anyone else. Everyone's opinion is as valid as anyone elses.

The meeting is the next chance we have to get public opinion, to get quotes off concerned residents so we know what people want to see done, and get them involved in any work that may need to be done. I suggest as many people as possible take their digital cameras to the meeting, as good photos can be very useful.

And in answer to both basil's philanthropic projects or the poll tax riots, both of these, in both news and political terms, a completely different kettle of fish. One is pure human interest, a good 'and finally', a story viewers/listeners can latch on to.

The Poll Tax effected an entire country, all classes, all races, and nationally.

Think of it like this: The laws on self defence are based upon appropriate force. if someone lunges at you and you assault them with a weapon, that's not self defence. Our reaction to the scheme, publicly, should be in direct proportion to the threat.

At the meeting the councillors and planners will have to face a large group of people, answer tough questions. that's what they're there for. so make them sweat, but don't bully them, berate them shout at them or act in a way that can be seen as thugish. that works for them as they can close the meeting and leave. no answers given.

there will be people at the meeting who haven't formed an opinion yet or who might think development's a good idea. that's ok. free thought is allowed. if so, then they'll be wanting to hear the facts, how it will effect them etc. we need them, as well as any press, to hear our side of the argument. In a calmer more authoritarian tone than theirs. else all they'll remember when they leave and talk to their neighbours is that there was a lot of shouting etc.

These are just my thoughts, i think everyone's put in a lot of effort and time over this weekend and we can afford a little bit of pride for that.

(oh, and the kidnapping bit, that's not a suggestion).
Graham Wild
Monday, October 13, 2008 09:18
Ok Guys lets all take a breather. This is a 3 village campaign to stop a devisive council spoiling our communities, not one mans ego trip as to who can do most, say most and shout loudest. We already have two flyers saying different things, one with 1400 houses on ours with 2000, if we resort to exageration, bully boy tactics and shouting, it plays right into the councils hands. People will loose interest, feel they are not needed or afraid to speak and then we all loose.
Take a look at all the postings on here, so much community spirit, pulling together, lets not fragment it and miss what we are trying to achieve.
Lets all turn up at the meeting Thursday, listen to what they have to say, if we have a spokes person , let them speak and ask questions in a dignified sensible manner, no shouting or swearing that isnt what i believe the vast majority of people on this forum want or deserve after giving up so much time and effort. We are grown ups lets act like them please.
Monday, October 13, 2008 12:03
ive just received this leeked artist impression of what are planning for crosshills in the next 50 years

[img scr=""]
Liz K
Monday, October 13, 2008 12:08
Totally agree with Graham, lets cut out the bickering and get on with being positive about the campaign.
Webmaster, I don't know if its possible, but if there were any further argumentative comments from any party that could damage our stance, couldn't they be edited out before they go open to public debate? (although not to the extent that public knowledge on this campaign was attempted to be edited out!!!!!)
Everyone, and I mean everyone on this forum has South Craven's best interests at heart, so lets keep personality clashes out of it and concentrate on getting the job done.
Offer still stands to anyone who needs/would assist with getting more fliers out there - haven't had any takers yet, other than Phil. Call 07798 698599. Will be out and about in Crosshills again tonight - check out the "where we have flyered thread" and help us out. Even if you only do one street, it could be 20-30 people.
extra that you get to the meeting on Thursday - most important.
Finally, we need to appeal to the councillors and get them on our side.
Monday, October 13, 2008 12:11
Phil, Very intelligent remarks there sir. I have taken on board much of what you said. However the press release has now gone out to over 20 newsdesks so its a little late to ammend it. I will be sure to put any future press releases out to consultation on this forum before publicising it. I had a long chat with the Craven Herald this morning and they have asked me to remain close with them on developments. I did discuss the press release briefly and as I did actualy suspect this is realy a local story and it will be difficult to expand it without some kind of dramatic angle. This was the reason for my style of release. Hmmmmmm kidnapping. You might have something there Phl! Tuesday and thursdays meetings are certainly a time for intelligent discourse and I do not think agitation will be the order of the day. I have one or two hard questions myself for the planners. After this weeks meetings I will record an audio blog with Joe Bamford in my studio and make it available in the press page of the NODISC web site. Maybe we can all discuss what the NODISC position is collectively before this happens?
Paul Wilkinson
Monday, October 13, 2008 12:23
Liz K - I agree with your sentiments entirely (especially about getting councillors on our side), but I'm morally bound to let people express their opinions here whether I agree with them or not - as long as they are not offensive or personally insulting.

Monday, October 13, 2008 12:29
The people who are talking about bickering, please stop, this is bickering in itself and is causing defensiveness which is not productive. A bit of debate is useful and healthy and eventually everyone consolidates. This is the natural process of team building, its called "storming".
Monday, October 13, 2008 13:45
LOL Tommy!!!
Liz K
Monday, October 13, 2008 17:00
Excellent, I think this means we're all friends again now! :-)
Will be leafleting Crosshills tomorrow day time as am not very well today, so anyone who wants some fliers, pls let me know. Thanks
Andy Wright
Monday, October 13, 2008 19:25
By chance I've just found out about the proposed development. I've spoken to my neighbour who was also completely in the dark. How do I get some fliers to distribute in and around Hazel Grove Road - Sutton by tomorrow.
I will even print them off myself if there is a link.
Monday, October 13, 2008 19:34
him i've a few left and am at west lane.

ring me on 07966 00 98 38 and i'll drop some off/meet up.
Paul Wilkinson
Monday, October 13, 2008 19:36
Hi Andy, welcome aboard! Liz K has a pile of fliers, see posts above, or you can download the flier at this link...

NODISC flier
Andy Wright
Monday, October 13, 2008 20:23
Thanks for the flier info. I've printed some off and will deliver to Hazel Grove Road, Hazel Grove and Scott Close tomorrow when I finish work.
Monday, October 13, 2008 21:03
Called for some flyers on 13th. just to let everyone know that the area between Station Road / Wheatlands Lane and Bundary Avenue / Baxter Wood in Cross Hills has now been covered. Let me know if you're in need of more help tomorrow evening (01535 630738)
cath packer
Monday, October 13, 2008 21:15
hi i live on Ryeland street and have just recieved the flier tonight this is the first i've heard about it! i know it's late in the day but if you need any help distributing any more i'm happy to help
cath packer
Monday, October 13, 2008 21:20
sorry forgot to put my number 07947755671
paul watson
The Hawthorns Sutton
Monday, October 13, 2008 21:31
has anbody done greenway through to institute street behind the police station?
Sarah Bell
Monday, October 13, 2008 21:47
Hello Campaigners
I would like to say that I am trying with all my might to send an email to object to the proposals and failing - keeps sending back a failed delivery notice. I cannot be at the meeting, as I live in Tottington Lancashire, but this was the email - I will try and snail mail it tomorrow. GOOD LUCK

To whoever it may concern

I was mortified to learn of the Government proposals to develop Sutton, Crosshills and Glusburn. I regularly visit these areas with my two small children because we enjoy some of the most beautiful and peaceful scenery. The wildlife and pleasant countryside is amongst some of England's finest, the views are breathtaking and it is a haven from our busy lives.

To lose yet more village atmosphere to replace with yet more houses will surely result in greater pollution, busier roads and make once serene areas into just another bustling town - of which we already have far too many.

Quite honestly, I question in these times of poor economy, why there is a need to develop when fewer buyers are investing, less mortgages are granted and so many hundreds of thousands of homes are not selling in a saturated market. But more importantly I am incredulous that anyone could even consider developing on Greenfield sites - mankind is quickly destroying our world and people are desperately in need of green and pleasant countryside. Escaping from the working world and breathing in the fresh country air is for me the best form of therapy a family can have. Why have these areas been targeted? Surely the recent builds opposite the park in Sutton are quite enough, without the destruction of further green belt areas. Soon I envisage a country in which our "green and pleasant land" is just a distant memory and the ever changing colours of the scenery in seasons are but a vision of cold stone and sloping rooftops.

Is there anyone out there in the powers that be who feels, as I do, that some places are best left unspoilt? What about the residents who have chosen to live in a quiet village for the benefit of their families? Do they have a voice? Is it heard? They have wisely chosen to,live in relatively idyllic locations with views and clean air. Are they now to be punished with falling house prices, a growing population, resulting in more crime, more waste and with local businesses being overtaken by larger firms? Surely, there are plenty of other areas to target without spoiling the quaint village life that exists there.

I am certain that if word had been well publicised and visitors/relatives/residents/ people who these proposals affect had all been notified, a huge objection would ensue. I am one person in a small family, a single Mum of two small boys who love the area and we look forward to our time away there. I doubt my words are taken seriously and I doubt that my opinion counts. However, I implore you to please reconsider these proposals and think of the 'smaller people' whose lives would be hugely affected in a very negative way, some might say devastated.

Yours sincerely

Sarah Bell
Sarah Bell
Monday, October 13, 2008 21:49
Ok - I think it's gone now on 4th attempt!
Sarah Bell
Monday, October 13, 2008 21:57
No it hasn't - will post tomorrow and hope it arrives in time!!
Paul Wilkinson
Monday, October 13, 2008 22:01
Hi Sarah, thanks for your support. I think you put "i" (eye) instead of "l" (el).

The email address is

LDF stands for Local Development Framework, an innocuous sounding branding of the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004.
Monday, October 13, 2008 22:12
That's better - thanks - best of luck.
Liz K
Tuesday, October 14, 2008 08:59
Hi All, thanks for the calls from Norma and Helena last night to distribute fliers. The response from Cath shows that parts of Crosshills/Glusburn still aren't aware. I will get some more fliers done today and try to drop them off at Helena's and Cath's tonight, before tonight's meeting in Skipton, or if not, on my way back. Ladies, I will ring you both later on today.

At the meeting in South Craven, can we make sure that our speakers get across to all our residents the true number of houses planned in the Craven district, I believe its 2000 over the next 7 years, rising to 5400 by 2026? We need to relay the correct figures at the meeting. Also, I think the NODISC flier reference to the level crossing being permanently closed needs clarifying - I read this as meaning permanently closed due to all the additional trains going through (i.e. if its down 40 mins/hour now, it would be 60 mins/hour with all the increased rail traffic. One or two people that I've spoken to have read this as being "closed, full-stop". Its just a technicality as the net result will be the same, but we just need to show we have our facts right.

We also get our speakers to make it clear to all the attendees at Thursday's meeting that the council will vote on this on Weds 22nd (Think this is right?) at Granville Street Skipton and that as many of the public as possible need to attend this one also. The "7.30 approx" vote time is a bit vague, don't you think - I think we should all aim to be be there for 6.30 at the start of the meeting, just so our agenda item doesn't get moved up the list.
Andy Jackson
Tuesday, October 14, 2008 10:45
Hi everyone - Like most people i've only just heard about this planned development which will destroy our village - don't know what I can do to help the campaign against it but I will show my support at the meeting on thursday night at the school.
Paul Wilkinson
Tuesday, October 14, 2008 10:53
Hi Andy - just do what we're all doing and keep passing the message on! There's also a load of background info on the forum in topics posted since the beginning of October. See you Thursday!
ps we've already had a lovely poem penned, how about a campaign song ;-)
cath packer
Tuesday, October 14, 2008 19:29
hi just done all greenway and down park road ,still got some fliers left anywhere else?
Tuesday, October 14, 2008 19:35
Hi Liz, Just finished delivering to Croft st, Higher Hartley st, Hartley st, Higher and lower lodge st, Croft Head terrace, Bungalow rd, Sunnybank rd and villas. I've got friends at Burnroyde Ave Cross Hills, (back of the Spar) they haven't seen any fliers, should I deliver the remainder of the fliers to Burnroyde Ave, Royde Close, Chestnut St,Beech St, and Ashville terr in the morning.
paul watson
The Hawthorns Sutton
Tuesday, October 14, 2008 20:51
Just returned from the skipton meeting in the town hall. what a heated debate the 2, thats all, TWO council representatives, and a consultation/feasibility drone were at pains to play down the fact that these houses are for the workers of leeds.
there were a few interesting points, the two that stuck out for me was "yes we can as a council, stop the bid but we have a responsibility to build 300 houses a year 40% of which will be "affordable" housing. I especially found funny when the feasibility drone arrived an hour and a half late from manchester and blamed the state of the roads and conjestion around here. Basil you missed the best part when the drone stood up and actually said "people lets have a reality check here, you live between two large populations, Leeds and Manchester and you have to expect these people are going to have to live somewhere".
People please feel free to take a calculator on Thursday night, you may need it as the presentation is full of figures and accronyms designed to baffle. To the point where the presentation dates were wrong and started to get the council leader confused.
Tuesday, October 14, 2008 21:12
Has anyone thought of a petition? This could be on view at the meeting on Thursday for interested parties to sign on entering-- Perhaps it would be a good start to build on before the deadline.
Peter Drake
Tuesday, October 14, 2008 21:40
Like Paul just returned from the Skipton meeting.
The brief facts are as follows,
In attendance, Councillor Knowles-Fitton (chair), Colin(?) Walker council officer responsible in some way for preparation of the bid, a representative from Grimbleys consultants who are in some way helping with the bid, some 180 - 200 members of the public and a smattering of councillors.
Councillor Knowles-Fitton opened the meeting by announcing that its purpose was to present details of the bid and answer questions raised by the audience. On prompting he agreed it was also for the council to hear the views of the public.
Mr Walker then made a presentation giving details of the bid, its background and the opportunities and issues raised by it.
The meeting was then thrown open to questions/comment.
It's difficult to summarise what turned out to be a lengthy session, however I recall some of the main themes were as follows:
1. There was universal dismay at the lack of consultation by the council - a point denied by Mr Walker who claimed the opposite.
2. There was much support for the view that Craven did not need nor want the degree of development proposed ie 300 houses/annum.
3. There was resentment that our green spaces were to be built upon in order to provide affordable housing for commuters into Leeds
4. There was a feeling that the additional facilities arising from the development eg schools, health care etc were not being catered for by the funds on offer.
As discussion progressed it became apparent that the arguments being propounded by supporters of the bid boiled down to:-
"under government pressure we shall have to build 300 houses/annum so why not go for the Leeds bid since that would give access to government funds which we need for much needed infra-structure work". - a figure of £20m was mentioned.
I and other members of the audience queried the £20m (here I depart from the factual report and rely upon hearsay. I understand that £40m might be available to share between 3/4 successful bids giving CDC £10m/£13m) One member of the audience quoted from an report written by Mr Walker giving a cost for XHills railway station at £14m (Mr Walker had earlier told me £6m !) Whatever the financial facts might turn out to be it would seem doubtful that government money would do little more than give Craven a new station.
Finally not one voice spoke in favour of making a bid application.
See you on Thursday
Liz K
Tuesday, October 14, 2008 21:51
This is long, but important, please bear with me!

Just returned home from Skipton meeting also - we NEED MORE people at our meeting on Thursday - a lot of Skipton people who attended only found out about their meeting 24 hours ago. Despite there only being approx 200 there, it was a very heated debate, and a lot of opposition in the room. We need more people and more pressure on the speakers Colin Walker (Planning Director) and Chris Knowles-Fitton (Council Leader). At tonight's meeting Knowles-Fitton said he might re-consider moving ahead with the Leeds City Growth Point Bid IF THE SAME FEELING IS SHOWN ON THURSDAY.

Make no mistake, this is not over - we MUST all put our questions and feelings across on Thursday AND we must also attend the Council Meeting On Weds 22nd at Skipton Town Hall (starts at 6.00pm now, but "our slot" is suggested as being 7.20 - we should aim to get there before 7.20 to make sure we are heard) - we mustn't let them say they will hault it at Thursday's public meeting and then vote on it on 22nd, behind our backs. Keep up the good work on the publicity everyone.

OK, now for some facts on the figures. Colin Walker stated that "250 new houses per year" has already been agreed by the council, and that all they are asking for is another 50 under the Leeds Growth Point Bid. THIS IS NOT THE CASE.
The LDF (Local Development Framework) for CRAVEN (i.e. the entire district) has an agreement for 200 new houses per annum ACROSS THE DISTRICT, with a possible enhancement of a further 50 per annum IF REQUIRED, for local needs. (Not the needs of Leeds).
Under the Leeds Growth Point Bid, 300 new houses per year until 2026 would be built, 26% of which have been allocated for South Craven, 35% for Skipton = 1404 total in South Craven PLUS an additional 33 year on year if required = 1998 in South Craven alone.
If the Leeds Growth Point Bid (LGPB) does not progress, the figure (currently) will revert to 200 (plus 50 if required) ACROSS THE DISTRICT. This is a point we need to get proper clarification on at Thursday's meeting - we may want to go to a public enquiry on this one, but will tackle this once we have dealt with the LGBP. Places such as Ingleton and Bentham are apparently in desperate need of additional housing, yet they are hardly considered in the growth point bid.

Onto Affordable Housing, and what it actually means, as it wasn't exactly made clear at tonight's meeting. Affordable housing is what is "affordable to the LOCAL population". This could mean that discounts on purchase prices are made available to local people, however, the figures of discounts and quantities of houses are all dependent on the area in which the houses are to be built.

e.g. currently, in South Craven, new housing would have to be made up of 40% affordable homes, with say a 40% discount, but Skipton who have officially a higher average annual income per head would have to have 50% affordables with 30% discount, Ingleton/Bentham who have a lower average annual income would have 30% affordables with 60% discount. The figures can be manipulated to meet the needs of the local people. Affordable houses may be used for renting or purchase - last survey of South Craven indicated that local people would want 75% of any new affordable homes to be rentable, as they are still not affordable to the majority of local people (i.e. mortgages too high).

So, in brief (sorry that I've not been), we all need to turn up on Thursday, put our objections forward, turn up again next Wednesday to stop the possibility of any underhand vote, and then keep a look-out for further developments of this nature. Whatever Colin Walker says about having consulted the public, they clearly haven't. After this is all over,(fingers crossed that we win) it has been suggested that we get together a group of local residents who meet on a regular basis and who agree to keep a watching brief on this to make sure it doesn't rear its ugly head again by some back door opportunity.

Thanks for listening.
Dawn - Sutton Pavilion
Tuesday, October 14, 2008 21:58
Thanks Liz K - well done :-)
Tuesday, October 14, 2008 21:59
We live between Leeds and Manchester? Since when? Not according to any map I've ever seen we don't. Maybe the CDC / Grimbleys are using Mappa Mundi as a reference?

Anyway, wishing you guys and gals all the best for Thursday. Hopefully we can sink this bizarre plan for good.

Martin Watson.
Wednesday, October 15, 2008 01:21
Great Points there Liz. With this level of perception they dont stand a chance at all. Paul I do feel sad that I missed that part but the whole thing was such a farce I couldnt handle any more of the bull. It was entirely clear to me that they were trying to sell us on local infrastructure benefits and steer us away from the bigger facts in relation to the Growth point bid. There was one moment where I couldnt stop laughing when Colin walker who was clearly losing the plot more and more and backed himself into a corner by making a bunch of promises and finished up by saying " but this is all speculative????" So basicly he promised a load of stuff he was guessing about! There were a lot of very uncomfortable moments for Colin Walker and Chris Knowles Fitton but I couldnt help noting the fact that when I asked the drone ( who had just finished telling us all about the government plans) was it not a fact that the local infrastructure funding was entirely dependent on the growthpoint bid being accepted firstly Mr Knowles Fitton went very red and screamed at me to shut up! At which point the drone stated that he couldnt speak for the governement? These people all clearly DO know full well that the only way to get the local infrastructure money is to go for the Leeds city Growth point bid. They cannot get the bigger money without support for the local infrastructure framework. This is why Colin Walker pulled up his power point presentation all about local planning and talked about things like " the retail offer?" What was that anyway? Am I to understand that they will give me 20 grand to open a shop? Another point to note was the fact that Chris Knowels Fitton actualy stated that this was the beginning of a process and that public consultation was always to be on the agenda ( or words to that effect) A CLEAR DECEPTION RIGHT THERE IN MY OPINION. Lets not forget that they did in fact try to slip this through three weeks ago when Steve Place and his two sympathetic councillors revolted and got the meeting abandoned in favor of an extraordinary meeting when they were given five minutes to read the full proposals and take a vote immediately! There had been NO public consultation at this point nor had they ever intended there to be before getting the bid in behind out backs. I wonder if the right honourable LAIN Wright MP who is in charge of the strategic housing plans nationaly knows what an incompetent game is being played up here in South Craven? I do not know the legal position but I wouldnt mind betting that if he were to receive emails from disgruntled residents over this bid it may damage the authenticity of checked boxes and local public support. Paul was that you behind me? ..Paul Watson?
Wednesday, October 15, 2008 10:06
hi, have been contacted by a news editor at calendar who is trying to get a news reporter and camera to the meeting tomorrow, but needs to know how many people will be there, how long it will go on for, which council officials etc will be there and if they will be allowed to film. he said he needs permission from an organiser to go to the meeting. can anyone help with that?
Paul Wilkinson
Wednesday, October 15, 2008 10:14
Hi Debbie, that's great news - contact Stephen Place for advice on 01535 633124.
Wednesday, October 15, 2008 10:52
hi all,

sorry couldn't make the meeting last night. will be there tomorrow and next week though.

i can put a petition form together, but won't be available to take the petition as i may have to leave early (work commitments).

if i do it tonight, can yu get some printed tomorrow liz?

@ Martin, we do live relatively equidistant from Leeds and Manchester, but his point's still not valid!

as for the development figures, i think the CPRE letter on the forum is one of the best alternative plans, ie skipton and keighley brownfield and ex industrial sites. after all, towns are supposed to already be ready for new inhabitants, and there is already a train station, services and so forth.
Liz K
Wednesday, October 15, 2008 11:54
Hi Phil

Pls give me a ring on 07798 698599 ref petition - we are out tonight, but if you e-mail it to me I can print some off at work tomorrow and get organised to be at South Craven say at 6pm so we can ask people to sign it as they come in and as they leave - we could have a few people there with clipboards and pens so we can have several residents signing at the same time! Time management :-)

Hi Debbie - fab news about Calendar - we need to try to push for them to be there for definite. Council officials that should definitely be there are Chris Knowles-Fitton, leader of council and Colin Walker, Planning/Environment Director - their proper titles will be on the CDC website no doubt.
Wednesday, October 15, 2008 12:18
Hey Guys, a little heads up for you all. It may be wise to get to Thusdays meeting real early because they are planning to have security on the door with click counters and after the first 350 get in, the doors get shut for health and safety reasons. I think Colin Walker and Chris Knowles Fitton are on the verge of being finished off now. I do not think we need a petition or in fact need to do anything else at this point. In fact in my opinion it may even be possible that thursdays meeting could be a turning point.
Wednesday, October 15, 2008 12:30
hi basil

at the moment we don't have anything concrete on paper.

tomorrow is the best opportunity we have for that.

to not do it, i believe, would be shortsighted. turning points or not, it's more newsworthy if we can actually prove public opinion is with the NODISC campaign.
Paul Wilkinson
Wednesday, October 15, 2008 12:36
I agree with Phil. Regardless of how the meeting goes tomorrow, the main focus then has to be the re-arranged full council meeting next Wednesday (22nd).

Remember this?...

"Craven District Council appears to be preparing an about-turn in its decision to refuse a controversial housing development on a huge swathe of greenfield land.

Planners are expected to back-track on their pledge, made at a mass meeting in Cross Hills in July, to fight the building of 74 homes off Green Lane, Glusburn."

Wednesday, October 15, 2008 13:26
Hi again, leading on from Basil's comments it may be essential that we make sure that those people who are willing to have a voice in the meeting get into the building ahead of others who may "just" be there in a supportive capacity. I don,t mean that in patronising way as i would probably count myself in this majority group. I just mean that our collective voice would be given more reverence if small group of totally informed and eloquent people were to put our point across, rather than a room full of hecklers, which may result in another adjournment. Nevertheless, the more people that are there the better, to show just how much feeling and support there is about this issue and you never know, there may be the opportunity to have a second meeting of people afterwards, after the first 350 have gone in!!??!! Would it be a good idea, Therefore, for the more vocally involved spokespeople to meet at 5.45, say in the tennis court area, beforehand??
Liz K
Wednesday, October 15, 2008 16:01
More reason to have our cameras with us - plus petitions - if people don't get in because there are too many, we need to be able to demonstrate how many people actually do turn up, i.e. how many people really care about these issues.
Anyone who doesn't get let in can at least sign the petition. I find it hard to believe they will only let 350 people in on the grounds of H & S - how many pupils are there at South Craven? How many would be in an assembly at any one time?

We can't let them censor us. I don't trust rumours, we need proof positive that they will back down and by that I mean, we see them vote it out next week, not just believe that they will just cos they say they will. (their words mean nothing, only actions - look at Green Lane situation)

Agree totally with Debbie - heckling should not be the order of the day, we need clear speaking and prepared questions AND more local people need to see what is actually being proposed with their own eyes - its not right for anyone to be excluded. Can we work out a plan who is definitely going to speak and get them there early - if at all possible, should we discuss this by phone/e-mail - this forum is public to the council also, so need to have a plan worked out between us.

PLEASE ALL PEOPLE READING THIS FORUM, IGNORE THE 350 SO-CALLED LIMIT, WE ALL NEED TO BE THERE EVEN IF WE DON'T ALL GET IN - IT COULD BE A PLOY TO DETER PEOPLE FROM BOTHERING TO TURN UP IF FOLK THINK THEY MAY NOT GET IN. My husband has already volunteered to stay outside and get petitions signed if we exceed 350 and they won't let people in.

Any more news on Calender?

Phil my e-mail address for the petition is
If you can send it through tonight, I'll print some off tomorrow.
(we're out tonight but will have mobiles with us if you need us)

One more thing - is someone prepared to bring up the GVA Grimley info that's been brought to light by the webmaster on the Skipton meeting thread?
Paul Wilkinson
Wednesday, October 15, 2008 16:35
Good call, Liz. I can confirm the forum is being monitored by CDC.
Wednesday, October 15, 2008 16:40

The school hall take aprox 300 kids + form teachers for an assembly. Fire reg. will have to be adeared to but they wont cover the school grounds.
Wednesday, October 15, 2008 17:57
i am hearing roumors that colin walker may not be at the meating tomorrow can anyone confirm if this is true
Wednesday, October 15, 2008 19:25
hi everyone. We all assume that this emotive issue is only of interest to us "older" members of the community, but i was pleasantly surprised that my 14 year old niece is so concerned about issues raised by the NODISC campaign that she is going to do a class talk about it next week. Lets make sure that we have some positive news to give her for her "grande finale", and show her and all other younger members of our society that much can be achieved when like-minded people stand up for what they believe in and lets not let the planners and developpers turn our 3 villages into one characterless town, possibly with a grotesque name like "CROSSBURN-IN-CRAVEN"!!!!!

We all love our villages, so lets all turn out tomorrow night and peacefully show our support for all the fantastic people who will be acting on our behalf to preserve our areas for our future adults!!
Wednesday, October 15, 2008 19:55
kildunne good old yorkshire name that .just wonder how may people objecting are suton born and bred
Paul Wilkinson
Wednesday, October 15, 2008 20:08
Steve, your comment is not relevant to the topic. We all pay our Council Tax. Until very recently, the majority of visits to this website were from ex-Suttoners who have moved away to all corners of the globe. Liz K is a very hard working supporter of our campaign, and for all you and I know she could be born and bred in Sutton and married to a Scotsman!
Wednesday, October 15, 2008 20:11
Ouch Steve!

This is the report to be presented at the meeting obtained from the coucils website under committee meetings.

Full Council – 22nd October 2008
(Report from adjourned 8th October 2008 meeting)


Report of the Director of Environmental Services

Ward(s) affected: All

1. Purpose of Report

1.1 To update Members on recent developments in relation to Growth Point status, and to seek Members’ approval in principle for a submission of a Programme of Development bid in relation to Growth Point.

1.2 To seek Member approval in principal for the preparation of a detailed programme and brief for a regeneration Masterplan for South Craven, with a further report being brought to Policy Committee for approval of the programme and brief.

2. Recommendations – Members are recommended to:

2.1 Confirm support in principle for the Growth Point draft Programme of Development (POD), with the indicative housing numbers and distribution referred to in Option 2 of this report (in line with the area distribution in para 3.14), subject to these numbers being further considered and approved through Regional Spatial Strategy and the Council’s LDF procedures.

2.2 Give delegated authority to the Strategic Director for Environment Services, in consultation with the Leader and lead member for Strategic Housing, to finalise the POD document, prior to final submission on 27th October 2008.

2.3 Confirm support for the expression of interest in relation to the Community Infrastructure Fund (CIF), subject to a further statement being submitted reflecting the indicative housing figures referred to in 2.1 above.

2.4 Agree to the initiation of a South Craven Regeneration Masterplan, document including the preparation of a programme of work and a detailed brief, with these details being reported to Policy Committee for approval once they have been worked up.

3. Background

3.1 Policy Committee on 24th September, considered a report which set out the background to Growth Point status, and how the Council had emerged as one of four new Growth Points within the Leeds City region, as well as the funding streams that had potentially opened up to the Council. A copy of that report, and its accompanying Appendix has been circulated to all Members.

3.2 Policy Committee determined that it was unable to reach a view on whether it should provide support to the Council’s engagement in the two funding streams of (POD & CIF), as it had a number of concerns, particularly in relation to potential increased housing numbers and the increased distribution for South Craven. Policy Committee resolved that there should be a special seminar for Members to be able to understand the issues better, and a special Full Council meeting.

3.3 The member seminar took place on 1st October, and was well attended. A summary of the key points is provided as Appendix 1 to this report.

3.4 The main points that Members had a degree of consensus over were:

• Agreement to 300 dwellings per year over the RSS period (as agreed at Policy Committee in December 2007.
• The 300 per year should be distributed across the District in accordance with the proportions agreed through the LDF Core Strategy.

3.5 Since the Seminar, officer discussions at the Leeds City Region working group have continued, and it has emerged that such an approach could be included within the POD. It has also emerged that each of the four Districts will have a slightly different approach to the Growth Point. Some Districts will have sites named & pre-allocated and currently available (as in Barnsley), while a more flexible, area based approach, without reference to specific sites could be promoted by Craven. This would reflect Craven’s current stage in its LDF and would be a more realistic representation of where the planning process is currently at. It has also emerged that the POD would state that housing figures are indicative only at this stage, and will be subject in each case to each Council’s LDF consultations and procedures, and any increased housing figures being agreed through RSS. In this way, clarity can be given that Councils will need to fully engage the public in this process, and gain subsequent formal agreements to site allocations through established planning procedures, and that in submitting expressions of interest and bids, Councils are not being committed to provision.

3.6 In Craven’s case, spreading the 300 dwellings per year around the District in accordance with Core Strategy could be seen as a removal of the direct correlation between increased housing numbers and the case for the provision of infrastructure in South Craven, and could result in Craven’s bid being weakened. This is particularly the case given that Craven’s RSS figure when Growth Point was applied for was 180 dwellings per year, but this was increased through Final RSS to 250 per year, thus producing much less of an uplift in housing numbers.

3.7 As a result, it is suggested that two options are considered for inclusion into the POD:

Option 1

3.8 An indicative figure of 300 dwellings per year for the whole RSS period (2026).

Option 2

3.9 An indicative figure of 355 dwellings per year for the Growth Point period (up to 2016/17), with a reduction back to 250 per year in later years.

3.10 Both Options 1 and 2 provide a total number of dwellings 2008 to 2026 of 5400 dwellings

3.11 As can be seen from the chart in Appendix 2, both options provide a total RSS period figure of 5400 dwellings.

3.12 The more likely reality would be a slow start from 2008, particularly given the current state of the present housing market, with an increase beyond the next two years when the market picks up, with the biggest increases after the infrastructure investments, coupled with associated enabling feasibility works and masterplanning have taken place. This possible trajectory is shown as the right hand column in Appendix 2.

3.13 It must be emphasised that these figures are purely indicative, and would be subject to public consultation and approval through the LDF process and the RSS.

3.14 In both Option 1 and 2, it is proposed to use the agreed LDF Core Strategy distribution below:

Location Proportion
Skipton 35%
Glusburn/ Crosshills/ Sutton 26%
Settle with Giggleswick 10%
High Bentham 6%
Ingleton and Gargrave (together) 8%
Villages with facilities (together) 15%

3.15 To maximise Craven’s potential of attracting funding, it is strongly recommended that Option 2 is offered as an indicative trajectory, reflecting earlier delivery in the Growth Point period, balanced by slower delivery in the latter half of the RSS period. The point would be made in the POD however, that the likely scenario would be that shown in the right hand column, ie a slow start, a peak after 2012, with a slowing in the rest of the period.

4. Implications

4.1 Financial Implications

There are no immediate financial implications to the Council as a result of submitting the expression of interest for CIF and the bid for POD, other than officer time. A South Craven Masterplan might incur an upfront cost if commenced prior to the award of POD funding. The cost of a Masterplan and associated public engagement could be in the order of £50k to £100k. A further report would be needed to Policy Committee to seek approval of a programme of works and a detailed brief.

4.2 Legal Implications

There are no legal implications arising from this report.

5. Contribution to corporate priorities

The growth Point status contributes significantly to all of the Council’s Corporate Priorities

6. Risk Management

There is a risk that the submissions for CIF and Growth Point POD do not result in funding being delivered. In the event of that occurring, given the work that has already taken place in relation to the station, it is anticipated that work could continue, with alternative funding sources being sought.

7. Consultation with others

Government Office, Network Rail, METRO, NYCC, Y&H Regional Assembly,

8. Author of the Report –
Colin Walker, Director of Environmental Services.
01756 706440.,

Appendices –

Appendix 1
Summary of points of agreement from Member Seminar - 1 October 2008

Appendix 2
Indicative annual completion rates for housing
Options 1 and 2

Appendix 1

Summary of points of agreement from Member Seminar
1 October 2008

- it will be important to achieve consensus within the Council in taking our position forward to the City region / Govt Office

- Members still appear to be supportive of 300 dwellings / annum for the Craven District but are some what less supportive of allocating the level of housing proposed for South Craven ie RSS plus growth point.

- Members will want to see the case put whereby we still pursue the infrastructure through Growth Point but articulate our case in such a way as to demonstrate that a wider area would benefit from those improvements and therefore it is appropriate to spread the housing load wider than just Glusburn and Sutton, perhaps taking the 50 additional dwellings in South Craven but reducing the %age allocated from RSS. Mr Osborne of Arups expressed the opinion that a case could be put and it would not be unreasonable to do so provided we make the case.

- We need to define South Craven, it would appear the South Craven being referred to is Glusburn and Sutton Wards but South Craven as part of the Craven District is Glusburn, Sutton, Cowling and Aire Valley with Lothersdale.

- Members need to see something coming forward asap to show how we could / propose to bring forward / speed up production of the necessary LDF planning policy papers to fill the void that appears to exist so as to enable the Council to take the initiative in dealing with developers / applications and make clear what it would like to see happen and what it expects from them. Members appear supportive of seeking contributions by way of a policy which places a levy on all new housing to help with infrastructure improvements.

- Members agreed with Mr Osborne’s point about Growth Point being an opportunity for the Council to set the agenda, and drive forward what it wants, with a clear vision expressed through a masterplan, and how infrastructure can work hand in hand with growth.

Appendix 2

Indicative annual completion rates for housing
Options 1 and 2

The “possible Station being delivered by 2012, and other feasibility and masterplanning work being in place to stimulate the housing market in the District.

RSS 2007 Final Option 1 Option 2 Possible
RSS 300 per year Higher numbers reality
2008 in Growth Point years

2009 180 250 300 355 230
2010 180 250 300 355 230
2011 180 250 300 355 240
2012 180 250 300 355 280
2013 180 250 300 355 360
2014 180 250 300 355 450
2015 180 250 300 355 450
2016 180 250 300 355 400
2017 180 250 300 310 360
2018 180 250 300 250 330
2019 180 250 300 250 290
2020 180 250 300 250 270
2021 180 250 300 250 260
2022 180 250 300 250 250
2023 180 250 300 250 250
2024 180 250 300 250 250
2025 180 250 300 250 250
2026 180 250 300 250 250

Totals 3240 4500 5400 5400 5400

Wednesday, October 15, 2008 20:12
Steve it doesn't matter if you've lived in the villiage all your life or just two years, it will affect us all and we all have an interest in keeping the villages as they are (within the constraints of reasonable development), it's the 'mass' development that is of concern and how it will change the way of life, the Schools, the local shops (bet tesco will already have thoughts about and Express store!), the health centre and our security as a community.

Wednesday, October 15, 2008 20:13
Has everyone contacted their M.P. regarding the overdevelopment? (David Curry)
surely he has an obligation to represent the wishes of his constituents.
Wednesday, October 15, 2008 20:17
May be of interest, the flood risk to houses in the area NOW, how development will change that risk will be or importance. The new builds will be ok they will raise the land and put in flood defences around (just like in Cononley at the Yorkshire Ice Cream site), the flood water however will have to go elsewhere.
Wednesday, October 15, 2008 20:18
Forgot the link, take a look
Wednesday, October 15, 2008 20:26
If there isn't enough room in South Craven school hall for all who wish to attend the public meeting on Thursday and people are turned away, surely they are within their rights to demand further meetings until every interested party has been informed of the council's proposals first hand with the opportunity to ask their own questions should they wish to do so.
Wednesday, October 15, 2008 20:54

I've been away on business since the meeting last week and I've arrived back home to see sterling efforts being made by everyone to save our villages!!

This is a fantastic community and I am proud to be part of it.

I've sent email links to the NODISC leaflet on my company's e-notice board (with over a thousand employees, I'm pretty sure there are more than a handful from South Craven).

See you all at the meeting tomorrow
Nick the Brief
Sutton In Craven
Wednesday, October 15, 2008 21:14
Webmaster, I'd like to know more about the involvement of GVA Grimley in this process. They are part of GVA Worldwide. The UK subsidiary has an address (amongst others) in Central Leeds (King Street). The representative who arrived late on Tuesday said he was from Manchester, Grimley's are to be found there as well (Fountain Street, M2). Why are Craven District Council being advised by the Manchester end of the operation? One explanation would be that Grimley's are also acting for another interested party (i.e. another potential bidder) through their Leeds office. Is there a conflict of interest within Grimley's?
When were GVA Grimley first instructed? Who first made contact with whom? What were the terms of instruction? What are the agreed fee arrangements?
Paul Wilkinson
Wednesday, October 15, 2008 21:21
Hi Nick. I found out about GVA Grimley by searching Google. I don't have any more specific details, but their Leeds office seems to be a relatively new satellite for the Manchester office. The portfolio on their website makes interesting reading. As well as provide planning consultancy services they also appear to be involved in a lot of development projects. Did you see the post about Selby? GVA Grimley again, on behalf of Leeds City Region.

Their website is...
Liz K
Wednesday, October 15, 2008 21:42
Dear Steve

A very brief introduction. I have lived in the village for 8 years, but have lived in Yorkshire (Bradford areas) for a further 16 years. Quite right Kildunne (not my maiden name) is not Yorkshire, its actually Irish in origin, - my husband who is Yorkshire through and through has Irish origins - his family have lived in Sutton and Keighley all their lives (over 60 years). When we first started dating 9 years ago, we would cycle from Keighley to Sutton to see his family, and I loved the village as soon as I first arrived here, and could think of no finer locality in which to live. We rented initially and then were fortunate enough to buy.
My family (also not from Yorkshire) visit here regularly, and the surrounding areas and have already forwarded letters of objection regarding the destruction of our green spaces.

I trust you too have responded in the negative to the council's plans and look forward to seeing you at the public meeting tomorrow when you pledge your support to our campaign to save all our South Craven villages. I will continue to work with as many of our community who are prepared to fight these abominable plans.

Best Regards

Wednesday, October 15, 2008 21:42
you all miss my point houses need building land needs developing. but not in your back yard once you are here!!. if so sutton would still be 1 farm and you wouldnt live here. ouch
paul watson
The Hawthorns Sutton
Wednesday, October 15, 2008 21:52
Basil yes that was me behind you at wed meeting.
been talking to a friend and he has come up with an accountability sugestion, this has worked in previous councils accross the country on other issues.

request that all parish, district & county councillors votes to be recorded thus identifying those members supporting the proposal.
Making clear indications which local councillors are supporting the scheme.
this is to allow for future action by local electorate at the time of elections and/or
The making of personal SURCHARGE in the event of the findings of maladministration by an OMBUDSMAN.
Liz K
Wednesday, October 15, 2008 21:53
Dear Steve
One last post before bedtime - where does your own back yard lie? If its Skipton, Crosshills or Glusburn, I'd like you to know that we have been also campaigning on their behalf also, not just Sutton's, and attended last night's meeting in support of Skipton. Yes, I chose to live here because it was semi-rural, but not in a new housing development, in an ordinary existing house.
This campaign is not just about preserving our "own back yard", but those of every resident of South Craven who appreciate's its rural spaces and laid back life style. If those who think that city life is for you, then Bradford and Leeds have plenty of empty houses and flats just waiting for occupation.
Night night, sleep tight!
Paul Wilkinson
Wednesday, October 15, 2008 21:55
Steve - I'm sure nobody objects to growth, but decisions need to be made locally, be proportionate, sensible and with full public consultation. Not done in secrecy as a result of a Government edict in response to a problem entirely of the Government's own making.

Look at the Greenroyd Mill and Woodturners projects - was there an outcry about those?
Wednesday, October 15, 2008 22:37

I take your point that the Grimleys man might have meant that we were roughly equidistant from Manchester or Leeds in commuter terms, but that's hardly the same as 'between'! His argument doesn't really stand up - on that basis he could argue that Glasgow was 'between' Leeds and Manchester.

Door to door, my working day is 13hrs - I commute by train and it is a long day, but I wouldn't swap our surroundings for anything! Even though our village (Cononley) is not part of the plan, I do feel it should be stopped. There are more than enough new developments and existing properties in both Leeds and Manchester to take up the slack.

Good luck for tomorrow!

Martin Watson.
Mr Bilbs
Sutton in Craven
Wednesday, October 15, 2008 23:14
Sorry Steve I must agree with the webmaster. Its more about the underhand way this has tried to be pushed through. We moved here last year and we knew about Greenroyd mill development, heck where we moved to was built in 1970 but I bet it was done with proper permissions and consultation. We only found out about this underhand move by the council because of this wonderfull website.

Steve so what if we moved here last year or last week or even yesterday for that matter. I moved here to be part of a semi rural community. My family and I participate in all the local events and offer our support where possible. I work in Pudsey and its an hours drive each way - I can tell you there are plenty of houses for sale on my route as well as some large housing new builds not to mention the tons of them I see springing up in Leeds. The argument that all these houses are needed is ludricus - even the affordable housing will not be that affordable to most people given the current ecconomic climate.

I hate my commute but like some one else has said I dont mind it because I know what a great peacefull area I have to come back to every day. If I wanted a town I could have moved to Pudsey and saved the cost of petrol.

Remember the great housing solutions of the 1960's? Where are they now?
Mr Bilbs
Sutton in Craven
Wednesday, October 15, 2008 23:18
Just as I was typing my last post the song 'We are village green preservation society' started playing in my itunes!!!

What a great song I think we should adopt it for NODISC. If you have not heard it its by Kate Rusby and is worth an inspirational listen:)

I will try and bring my video camera to the meeting. Technicaly I should be able to upload the files to my PC, Im not sure if the webmaster can do anything with them if he wants? I could also possibly load them on the facebook site for NODISC?
Graham Wild
Thursday, October 16, 2008 07:57
Spoke to South Craven School, the maximum limit on people in the Hall is 250.

Thoses that do get in MUST DEMAND ANOTHER MEETING OR AS MANY AS IT TAKES TO GET EVERYONE IN TO HEAR THE EVIDENCE. Do not let them get away with just one, we all deserve to hear them speak and we all deserve to have a say. Democracy must prevail even if the council miss the deadline.
Paul Wilkinson
Thursday, October 16, 2008 08:22
Well said Graham!

I've also been informed that some residents in Cross Hills are set to lose half their gardens under the RSS/LDF (also known as the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004) proposals. See Plot 326 on the SHELAA map.

Liz K
Thursday, October 16, 2008 08:23
Dear All

Please still all turn up this evening - we will be getting a petition round, counting heads and pressurising the council for extra meeting dates. My husband and his son will be amongst those taking names, numbers, etc. Even if we can't all get in, we need to show the council how many of us are against this.

Thursday, October 16, 2008 08:49
Camera crew in Cross Hills this morning.
A Former Holme Bridger
Thursday, October 16, 2008 08:53
Please can someone with a bit of legal knowledge clear something up for me. Knowing that much of the proposed build sites are actually on privately owned land I presumed that Compulsory Purchase Orders would be used should the plans go ahead. However, I have recently been informed that Compulsory Purchase Orders CANNOT be used where the land is to be used for housing and are only availble on land earmarked for trunk road/motorway construction or for public interest purposes. As these development plans are not for a motorway and are certainly not for public interest purposes, this could actually give us a very strong legal standpoint. Can anyone clear this up for me because if true I would imagine that at least some of the landowners would refuse to sell meaning the plans could no longer go ahead (unless the Council have even more build areas in reserve).
Paul Wilkinson
Thursday, October 16, 2008 09:06
I am not a lawyer, but it seems things changed in 2004.

The Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004 is

"An Act to make provision relating to spatial development and town and country planning, and the compulsory acquisition of land.
[13 May 204]
Be it enacted by the Queen’s most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same,"

The Act is made up of two tiers:

Regional Spatial Strategy (RSS)


Local Development Framework (LDF)

Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004

A Former Holme Bridger
Thursday, October 16, 2008 09:24
Thanks very much for that. Always wise to check before putting my size 9's in my mouth.
Paul Wilkinson
Thursday, October 16, 2008 09:35
Hi, it was a sensible question and I'm sure many people don't know that RSS/LDF is the "sheep's clothing" wrapped around the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004 - I know I certainly didn't.

Funny how RSS/LDF is plastered all over the place but Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004 is conspicuous by its absence!
alan smith
Thursday, October 16, 2008 10:06
Having attended the open meeting at South Craven School to object to the
building of 74 houses off Green Lane Glusburn when the CDC councillors present all agreed to object to the application then in private session reverse their decision,obviously to maintain credibility in view of subsquent events I wouldnt trust that lot as far as I could see them.
Thursday, October 16, 2008 11:42
Can confirm meeting to be in Craven Hall. Max. capacity 250
Could have used the sports hall.
TV cameras now in Sutton Park
Thursday, October 16, 2008 13:19
One of the important points that should be made by any spokesperson is the projection of the lions share of CDC's commitment to new builds being placed largely in South Craven....if the new builds were distributed more widely, they would not be noticed. Yes, South Craven is an area near to conurbations and thus might be expected to take the brunt...but (ignoring LEEDS wishes and £) CDCs responsibility is to build but not alter the unique and beautiful qualities of the area/community.
Steves old people / new people stance is vacuous (look it up Steve)....
See you tonight....
Sutton in Craven
Thursday, October 16, 2008 13:50
Tv cameras down Holme lane near the new development this afternoon.
Thursday, October 16, 2008 13:53
I agree that the petition is a great idea. I was being a little too optimistic.If the council have a history of promising back tracks and then not doing it then I agree that we have to go for the jugular untill the monster is dead.
I ahve been recieving a few calls here from concerned residents and I would like to inform you of one or two of the more interesting ones. I recieved a call from Carmel and Brian who own a property in Station rd Crosshills. After recieving a NODISC flyer they were horrified to discover that their home was under a grey area on the map. They had recieved no communication from the council in regards to how they felt about their land being used for development. At the Skipton meeting Colin Walker stated that he had taken surveys and spoken to people and groups in consultation of the plans. A question that has to be asked is " if this is the case then why were these two people not contacted since they would have to lose their homes?" Instead the first they knew of it was from a NODISC flyer. Another call I recieved was from Peter in Glusburn. He has recieved reliable information that Corss hills police station is facing closure by Yorkshire council. All local policing would then need to be controled from Skipton leavinga significant delay on attending incidents. A great question to ask would be " since the local infrastructure plans are designed to lay grounding for the influx of a larger population does this include a new police station?

Another point I thought about after the last meeting at Skipton. When I arrived there I noticed that many people including myself went armed with notepad and pen, thiws is because I wanted to learn something as did others. Colin Walker and Christ Knowles Fitton did not have any note taking items. They clearly had no intention of learning anything at all from the public.

On the subject of ordered questions I have to say I strongly object to this idea. Skiptons meeting was a great success because of the feeling of strong anger and unrest over the whole issue. If the proceedings are ordered and controled then this can only result in a comfort factor for Colin Walker and Chris Knowles Fitton.
Anyway, as was evident at Skipton it is impossible to contain 200 angry people and not expect them to want to have their say. After all Suttoners/Crosshillers were encouraged to do so on the flyers that have circulated. It would be wrong to tell them to " have your say" then try to arrange who gets to speak. In fact its clearly nuts!!! Those that truely want to speak should get there at 5 oclock as will I . I love the suggestion that there should be another meeting for those who dont get in! If they can not find a venue big enough to host this event then maybe they should put a stage into a field with a sound rig! Or even better lets suggest to Calender or Look North that they have Colin Walker and Chris Knowles Fitton on TV with an audience of Crosshillers/Suttoners and take questions live! I bet that would frighten them.

Hey Mr Bilbs, nice to see you again, maybe I should record a song for the campaign and get Andrew Monkhouse to write lyrics!
Liz K
Thursday, October 16, 2008 14:36
Hi Basil - I understand what you're saying about ordered questions - I maybe didn't express myself well enough. What I meant was that everybody should be given an opportunity to ask the questions they want to ask, without too many interruptions. There is a real possibility that the council will try to cut tonights meeting time down as the Skipton one went on so long. Too much heckling/interruption will reduce the time people have to get across their feelings and thoughts. I don't think we'll have any difficulty in encouraging people to speak their minds tonight - emotions are running high in the entire area. Its good that us little people are going to have our say tonight. No way I can get there for 5, won't get home from work till 6 - we'll get down as soon as possible - we will have petitions for folk to sign. My husband will stay outside, count numbers who don't get in, and let me/us know inside, so we can appeal for another meeting.
Thursday, October 16, 2008 14:44
looking on the map does it mean we will loose both petrol stations??
Thursday, October 16, 2008 14:59

Just to let everyone know that i have had confirmation that there will be a LIVE CALENDAR NEWS feed at the school tonight, with cameras inside the building and also outside. It is vitally important therefore that as many people as possible attend to show support for this worthy cause. Lets show the "powers that be" that we will not be taken for granted, and we are a force to be reckoned with and will not take this lying down. Best of luck everybody!!!!
Thursday, October 16, 2008 15:09
As is true for so many people, we only found out about this scheme earlier this week. I have to question what this is doing to our house values. I have no doubt they are falling - perhaps freefalling - even at the mere suggestion of this 'affordable' housing building site. Where it says in its report (Thanks John) that there are no financial or legal implications to registering an interest by the 27th, perhaps the council needs to know that they are already incurring costs. I would also love to know if any landowners had already been consulted in the last two or three years with the possibility of gaining a good price for their land through this compulsory purchase.
We moved to the area 18 years ago, attracted by the beauty of the natural surroundings and the friendly village atmosphere. £40m (or whatever the reality is) cannot buy it - but it can apparently ruin it.
We must fight this, even if it's from the school car park.
Glusburn (ex Suttoner)
Thursday, October 16, 2008 15:57
i will be very surprised if its a live feed on calendar news debbie.
calendar is broadcast 6pm-6-30pm in the yorkshire region
the meeting is due to start at 6.30pm. so maybe "look north" will have a live stream from the meeting
as it is i reckon we might get 20 seconds on fridays bulletins regarding the meeting
i hope im wrong and there is a live broadcast tonight
heres to a lively debate
Thursday, October 16, 2008 16:30
Sorry, i need to correct my statement saying the council want to close cross hills police station, it is actually north yorkshire police who want to close cross hills police station
Thursday, October 16, 2008 16:40
Hi Graham,
Sorry should have been clearer, there will be a live feed from outside the school, and there will be a camera inside the school for the meeting. This information has come from a source at calendar, so the more people that are there from 6pm the better
Thursday, October 16, 2008 16:48
i dont think this is a mass planning ap but to earmark land that could be used in the future to ease a houseing shortage. most of the land shaded on the map will get no further than this stage, but a small portion that meets certain criterea such as access will be looked at more closely, then some will be passed for future development. if not most of our children will not be able to buy a house in this wonderfull village of ours. i think at the meeting tonight if cdc get chance they will clear this up. i too would be against mass development on the scale you all seem to think is going to happen . 1 last thought maybe in 10 to15 years when your children have to move out of the area we can have another forum to see what went wrong
Paul Wilkinson
Thursday, October 16, 2008 19:16
Wow, what an experience that was!

I would like to thank EVERYBODY who has done ANYTHING to help with this campaign.

CDC is in no doubt about local opinion and the strength of our feelings.

Well done to everyone. That's the end of the beginning. Next focus is the full council meeting in Skipton next Wednesday.

The petition is still open and can be signed at Sutton Park Pavilion.
Joel Griffiths
Thursday, October 16, 2008 19:52
I was one of the 500 to 600 people outside the meeting unable to get through the door. What was the outcome of the meeting and where and when will be the next opportunity for me and the many others like me to have our opinions heard?

Liz K
Thursday, October 16, 2008 20:35
Sorry to all who didn't get in tonight, but the sheer numbers have shown that over development of South Craven is a very raw and real issue to us all. What an amazing response. Thankyou all for coming - keep up the support.

We need to keep the impetus going - the document they gave out tonight states that the next Full Council Meeting is at 7.30pm on Weds 22nd Oct (don't be late)- this is when they will vote on the Leeds City Growth Point Bid (5400 houses in Craven over 18 years, 26% of which would be in South Craven) - IF they listen to us, they will vote it out at this stage, BUT we musn't let our guard drop - indications are that we have won a small battle tonight but until this is voted out, we can't be complacent.
We then have some bigger ones to go through - we need everyone to support each other and work as a community on this one:

1. next Wednesday come to the Council Meeting - Skipton Town Hall - this is not a meeting that heckling will be welcome at - only 15 minutes is allocated to public speaking. If its OK with everyone I plan to request a 1 minute slot, just to beseech the council on all of South Craven's behalf and to hand over our petition? We have 597 names from tonight, but missed many more people as the meeting was ended so suddenly. There is a petition in Sutton Park Pavillion - could anyone who has not signed it, please do so.
Dawn, do you want me to take it to the meeting next Weds or will you come too?

2. Everyone needs to e-mail the council to be put on the mailing list for the consultation stages of the Local Development Framework - e-mail address is
Currently out to consultation, there are still 250 dwellings (includes flats, houses, appartments in mill developments) that WILL be built PER YEAR within the entire Craven District for the next 18 years. South Craven (Sutton, Glusburn. Crosshills) is currently up for 26% of this - 65 dwellings per year for 18 years = 1170 dwellings.
We can still affect this percentage, but we need to be on the list to be consulted.

I discussed the lack of "user friendly" information available to us ordinary folk with the planning department and council after tonight's meeting. They will try to make public notices easier and more relevant to us in the future. They also advised that they will put everyones' name/address who is on the petition into the LDF database, but just in case, e-mail them as well!

3. We need to form some "Neigbourhood Development Watch Groups" that meet on a regular basis -people who will keep websites, etc scoured for any information for future plans that may escape under the radar.

So I suggest most important actions for the next week are:

Sign the petition if you haven't already.

E-mail and ask to be put on the list for consultation

Attend next Wednesdays council meeting - but PLEASE no heckling - we need to keep councillors on our side, not wind them up and cause them to vote against us through any form of bloody mindedness (Webmaster, if I can't say "bloody" can you change the word please!)

Thanks again all, lets keep it going
Paul Wilkinson
Thursday, October 16, 2008 20:46
Hi Joel. I'm sure other people will post their thoughts on the meeting, but to me the gist of it was that a lady from CDC Planning Department drew the short straw and attempted to present a background picture of the local planning process. Unfortunately, the crowd could only take so many references to Regional Spatial Strategy, Local Development Framework, Draft Core Strategy, Site Allocation Documents etc and soon grew restless.

After order was restored we listened to more of the same, (did I mention Draft Core Strategy?), several questions were put from the floor but we never got round to hearing anything specifically about the Growth Point Bid. The representative from GVA Grimley who came from Manchester didn't get chance to do his "Leeds City Region Growth Point" presentation.

The Council Leader Christopher Knowles-Fitton eventually accepted there was unanimous opposition to the Growth Point Bid proposal and said he "might" not vote for it but wouldn't commit himself. He implied the Growth Point Bid "might" be forgotten but the LDF would still stand.

A very interesting comment was made by Deputy Leader Richard Foster, who said the rushing through of the Growth Point Bid was down to the Government, and the Government has moved the goalposts.

Colin Walker was unable to attend.

The next opportunity to have your opinions heard is the adjourned extraordinary meeting of Craven District Council at Skipton Town Hall next Wednesday 22nd October. The Agenda states the meeting starts at 7.30pm BUT it follows on from a policy meeting that starts at 6.00pm so it would be best to get there for the 6.00 start. As many people as possible need to attend the meeting.

In his TV interview broadcast by Calendar, Chris Knowles-Fitton said the funding associated with the Growth Point Bid (the carrot) "might" be used for a station.
A Former Holme Bridger
Thursday, October 16, 2008 21:13
It's a real shame that councillor Ady Green tried to turn the meeting into a party political broadcast for the Conservative Party. I couldn't help but notice that the village where he lives (Cowling) isn't even on the list for a single house being built. Perhaps we should give him 25% of the 26% of houses that have been allocated to Sutton, Cross Hills (2 words - both capitalised) and Glusburn. For somebody concerned at people having the microphone for too long he hogged it himself for a hell of a long time.

Right that's my personal rant out of the way and now I would just like to say that I was absolutely gobsmacked by the turnout of somewhere near 1000 people young and old who were 100% committed to fighting these plans. If we keep attending these meetings en mass the council might finally realise that we are not the 'soft target' that they think we are.

I know that there is a natural growth for every area of the country and that houses have to be built as the population grows and I have no objection whatsoever to that. However, I do object to houses being built for people to move INTO the area. If we have the need to build 300 houses for local people to move into then thats fair enough, but if we only have 20 villagers wanting to leave their parents home and buy a house of their own then let's just build 20 houses. It's not rocket science. Provide new houses in the village for people FROM the village.
Thursday, October 16, 2008 21:25
We need to be aware that even IF the Leeds city 'Growth Point' is rejected next Wednesday, this only accounts for 50 houses per year (900 in all). There will still be 250 houses built in Craven per year from 2009 to 2026 (4,500 in all). PLUS all of the exra land targeted for industry. So we need to continue our efforts well into the future. Dropping the extra 'Growth Point' development (if they do) may prove to be a sweetener to swallow the bitter pill that follows!

I would like to thank everyone who attended tonight, especially those who have taken active parts in organisation, it makes me value village life even more. But we're still a long way off saving our green belt and our village way of life. Lets make sure we keep it up!
Thursday, October 16, 2008 21:39
A Former Holme Bridger your view is vacuous (there you go tim looked it up) its you that only want old villagers not me i said you all missed my point and most complaining are from out of town ,i.e bazzzman, liz, Mr Bilbs ect we are in now so lets pull up the draw bridge.
I welcome people to move to the village and enjoy it ,but clearly you dont share my feelings on this. one of the points was people travelling to and from leeds Mr Bilbs?? this forum is so "1 sided"......
Paul Wilkinson
Thursday, October 16, 2008 21:42
A couple more pieces have now slotted into the jigsaw.

This is my latest interpretation of events. If anything is factually incorrect please let me know and I will amend it.

The Original version of CDC's RSS produced in 2007 identified a requirement for 180 dwellings per year in the entire Craven district. Which is fine, we have our own brownfield developments ongoing.


In February 2008 CDC requested an additional 120 per year, taking the figure to 300 per year in order to bid for Growth Point status. I don't know if they jumped or if they were pushed.

In May 2008 the final RSS specified 250 per year.

In the July 2008 Growth Point announcement this was uplifted, once again, to 300.

So, until the RSS/LDF is revised back down to 180 dwellings per year across the entire district we are still sailing in Growth Point waters.

In my opinion.
Thursday, October 16, 2008 22:12
about wednesday's meeting... was there not a post stating that the meeting about plans was to start at 6pm, adjourning at 7.10 for the scheduled meeting, and then resuming afterwards?

i was among the group talking to knowles-whitter-on who stated that he thought the dales national park building regulations should all be lifted so development can take place there! hardly seem the views of someone who might vote against this development.

@ steve, maybe the reason you see the forum as one sided is that you are in the minority on this issue? i'm an incomer to the village, but having lived amongst yorkshire villages most my life, and yorkshire cities, and yorkshire towns, i can tell you that i thought the days of regarding someone as auslander until they've bred 3 generations was more akin to heartbeat than real life.

if it was natural growth, which is already happening, i'd agree with you. but this isn't locally thought out plans, this is money grabbing from a cash poor council. if there were local jobs being created (after the initial building boom, which would go to the usual tenders, strangely enough, like the birmingham crew that resurfaced the roads in cross hills) then i'd agree with you. but it isn't. it's about creating a dormitory town for a city with it's own development problems.

if you want to create jobs and accomodation for leeds, why not compulsory purchase any of the ex industrial areas, why not use the european regeneration money to build up run down areas?

because the urban regen schemes of the last ten years have failed, mainly due to council incompetences and petty in fighting. this is why they need to create these growth points. becasue they messed up. the amount of 'urban splash' apartments going beggin is astounding, because people don't want to live there.

i take it you like it here, because i do, and i like it here because it's not a suburb of keighley, it's not a place where the majority of the population have no ties to the place. it's not even going to be an easy commute to leeds, train station or not.
A Former Holme Bridger
Thursday, October 16, 2008 22:23
Hi Steve.
Thank you so much for your comments. Before I respond could you please tell me which of the many dictionary definitions of vacuous you actually looked up and are referring to when you made your post.

Looking forward to hearing from you soon.

A Former Holme Bridger
Mr Bilbs
Sutton in Craven
Thursday, October 16, 2008 22:30
Steve, Im sorry but I think you miss the point I was making. I chose to move to Sutton because of how it is, what I am saying is there are plenty of places already on par with what the council want sutton/cross hill etc to be and to be honest they dont float my boat.

When looking for a house I looked for a nice semi rural area with houses I could afford, if no houses were for sale I would have waited until one had come up but i would certantly not expect a load of houses to be built and spoil essentialy the semi rural area I was lookig for just for my sake.

What do you mean 'out of town?' I pay my coucil tax just as you do and as a family we contribute to the local community.

Blimey Steve, Im most complaining...were you stood outside South Craven school tonight? I think you will find a few more complaining than just me Baz and Liz.

It a matter of securing the future of a village and the great commuity that is in it, a way of life and respect that is seldom seen in most areas of the UK. Is it so hard to beleive that people want to hold onto a lifestyle and area that is so appealing?

Obviously you missed the very heart of the point so I will repost it again just for you (please read it slowly it might sink in).

Decisions need to be made locally, be proportionate, sensible and with full public consultation. Not done in secrecy as a result of a Government edict in response to a problem entirely of the Government's own making.

Look at the Greenroyd Mill and Woodturners projects - was there an outcry about those? No.
Thursday, October 16, 2008 22:34
Leeds City Region weren't offering money for the good of their health. Their justification could only have been to encourage developers with cheap, greenfield sites. So if the message from this evening is carried through, a significant part of the danger will have been defeated.

However, as Norma says, that leaves the 250 per year. Some things to note about that. It was derived at a time when things were a little different and the notion of ravenous developers covering every square inch in houses wasn't that far off the mark. It is what Tuesday's rather out-of-date GVA Grimley chap called a "reality check".

It isn't necessarily the case that 250 houses will be built in Craven. Certainly not for the next couple of years given the economic climate. And after that things may well change again before the economy really turns around - because we can assume on current performance that the present shower in central government will be replaced at the next general election.

The council (and Mr Knowles-Fitton was open - if not necessarily happy - to admit as much in conversation afterwards) has managed communications extremely badly. And continued to do so right up to the start of this evening's session given the totally inappropriate - and counterproductive - nature of the "presentation". But what they did say was that by getting rid of the Leeds City Region threat we get rid of the most undemocratic and sneaky part of the problem. The Local Development Framework is yet to be finalised.

This sorry episode isn't over, even if the "battle of Leeds" is actually won next Wednesday. However what it has shown is that we do have to supervise CDC in their actions, but that with suitable supervision there is a chance that much damage can be avoided. There was a statement made that the proportions (i.e. the 26% for South Craven, 35% for Skipton and so on) were proposals, rather than established targets. Even assuming that those statements were not merely an attempt to spin the most favourable view on the situation, there are many problems with those proposals. What constitutes "South Craven", why Sutton, Crosshills and Glusburn should be targetted with twice the building that their share of the population warrants and so on.

There is much to remain vigilant about. Express interest through the CDC mechanisms (website, email notifications and so on) and keep an eye on what they're up to. NODISC is still needed.

Meanwhile, to anybody from CDC reading this. We're *NOT* a "settlement unit" or a "service centre" or any other of that newspeak twaddle that you hide behind when wrecking people's homes and communities - and that presumably that lot from Manchester taught you. For those of you whose jobs don't end up being "outplaced" because of this, you might like to consider that. Plain English, communication and a bit of thought would help you avoid the sort of appalling situation that happened this evening. One of the attractive things about Yorkshire is the people's common sense. Try showing some. Somebody has to do elected the politician's job, and that of council officers - just as much as somebody has to empty bins or be a GP. CDC has done itself, as well as us, a disservice. We've all got better things to do than apply close supervision to make sure you do your jobs.
Thursday, October 16, 2008 23:54
I was sadly unable to attend the meeting tonight, but will do my best to be at the one in Skipton, as will my 21 year old daughter who is also outraged at the proposals, and she lived in Leeds for 2 years.

I moved back to Cross Hills 13 years ago, and can trace the maternal line of my family back to Mary Smith in Sutton in the 1600's. I agree completely with what everyone is trying to acheive, and would just like to say to Steve that I think it is he who is missing the point. If these proposals go ahead, no one's children will be able to find a home in their village, because the villages won't exist any more. They will simply be part of the urban sprawl of Leeds/Bradford/Keighley, created by people with the same level of common sense as those who insist that our postmen deliver bills and letters from any official body to Cross Hills, Keighley, West Yorkshire, as their vans drive in past the sign at the Junction saying "Welcome to North Yorkshire".

I also think that if Steve thinks so highly of our villages and village life, he should be happy to bow to the view of the majority of residents in deciding what is good for us. Failing which, he could always stand for election to the Council on his platform of "It'll all be ok in the end", and the number of votes he gets will doubtless tell its own story.

Thank you all for your hard work and time.
Friday, October 17, 2008 01:19
Hi guys. After the meeting at south Craven School I have two things to raise. The first is we need to make sure that the councillors are in fact named and which way they vote. Can anyone confirm one way or the other that this is already a requirement for the vote on 22nd of Oct? The second thing Id like to raise is the fact that despite the apparent victory we were told we got tonight we still need to be sure to arrive at the vote on 22nd. If only to provide a presence in the chambers. One thing that stood out to me tonight was the fact that after he stated that the council would have to respect the majority opposition to the plans, Councillor Fitton then got very unclear when I asked him if that therefore meant that he would be voting against the plans himself. I do not trust him or his associates. It has been suggested to me that at the vote it would be sensible not to be antagonistic
so to avoid getting the councillors backs up prior to the vote. I believe this is probably the best policy. However if the mathematics look like it starts to go against us then getting vocal might then be the right thing to do. Any comments from anyone on that?
Graham Smith
Glusburn (ex Suttoner)
Friday, October 17, 2008 06:17
a former holme bridger
have you actually seen how many new houses have gone up in cowling in the last five years?
no wonder mr Green felt like he did. thats how we will all feel in 10 yrs time if this goes through
it wasnt a party broadcast by Mr Green
it seemed to me and i was inside the hall that Mr Green felt like everyone who was there and he told it like it is
and if you like sutton so much mr a former home bridger why are you not still in the village then?
Graham Smith
Green Lane
(the proposed site for 74 dwellings)
i lived in sutton for 24 years and the last 20 in Glusburn!
Liz K
Friday, October 17, 2008 08:03
Dear All

After next Wednesday's council meeting, at which we HOPE that the Leeds City Growth Point Bid will be thrown out (although the agenda for the meeting as given out last night still shows that the recommendations are that councillors should support the bid!!!! Scary stuff), I think we should put together another flier (Phil can you help with this one?) about the LDF and how to get involved at public consultation time - we should explain what it means to us all, what the current allocation is, and how to put your views forward (the e-mail and address details for LDF).
I'd like to ask for some help in distributing this new flier - we should do it in a more co-ordinated fashion this time so we don't overlap, but also that we don't miss anyone out - I have phone numbers for Cath Packer, Debbie, Helena, Norma, Tracy Boast and Phil - I'll contact you all in the next couple of weeks if its OK?
If anyone else is willing to help with flier distribution or any other aspect of the campaign, please contact me on or 07798698599, rather than leaving your own phone number on the forum.

Thanks again.

(PS Agree with Graham on Mr Green - taking control of the mike and getting it to people from all walks of life showed that he was trying to get the Council to listen to us. Lets hope he votes against the LCGP Bid. On Calendar last night at 10.30, Mr Knowles-Fitton said he could see that he needed to organise another meeting for the people who couldn't get in - if you or any of your Councillors are reading this, please do so. Thankyou)
Graham Wild
Friday, October 17, 2008 08:14
Great Meeting and excellent TV coverage. I only play a small part in this community action, ( deliver Fliers ) But the feeling of everyone pulling together is fantastic.
One point i would like to make. Coming from crosshills, did anyone see our local councillors??? We all saw and heard Ady Green, we all saw Placey, we all saw Roger Nicholson. WHERE WAS PHILLIP BARRETT, GRAHAM BECK. These people are suppose to represent us, if they were not at the meeting, how are they going to get an objectional view of the people they represent. The pair of them have been conspicuous by there silence in all of this debate. Time to stand up and be counted the pair of you, we will be in the council chambers next week watching who votes. Remember WE PAY YOUR WAGES AND ELECTIONS LOOM.
Friday, October 17, 2008 09:18
@ graham, there is no small part in the campaign, all is as useful as any other part. trust me when i tell you that NEVER in my life of dealing with community action groups, direct action and councils have i seen such a united community.

there was one councillor, don't know who it was, turned up the same time as us, in a land rover, and couldn't get in!

liz, i'm cool for doing another flyer. i was thinking much the same. Maybe a few A3 posters this time, with some of the info as well.
Friday, October 17, 2008 10:32
Liz, you don't even need to ask. I'm more than willing to do what i can to help with this important campaign, as are most people.

Webmaster - nice to meet you last night and put a face to the name. same goes for Basil and Liz!!
Friday, October 17, 2008 10:46
Thank you to the organisers of meetings, flyers etc., and for bringing the issue to the attention of the public. The majority object to the plan on local environmental grounds - villages divided by green areas (though united in purpose) not enough infrastructure, schools doctors, podiatrists, all sorts, traffic and leisure facilties for all of us and we simply dont want all this change. However legal grounds for objections are sometimes specific and do we know what is appropriate in this case? We didn't get inside the meeting and rely on the website for information. We heard someone outside say "if it is such good idea for us, why was it done secretly?" That says a lot! Getting people to write their objections may help if it was known where to send letters and legal grounds for objection. Meantime well done Sutton - keep united.
A Former Holme Bridger
Friday, October 17, 2008 11:04
Dear Graham Smith.
If you would like to take the time to re-read my post CAREFULLY you might find that you have made some rather basic schoolboy errors and assumptions.

Firstly I did not mention anything about how many houses HAVE been built in previous years I merely said that Cowling is NOT on the list to receive any of the 250 houses allocated to South Craven under the LDF. FACT

Secondly, I did NOT say that Councillor Ady Green didn't agree with us, I said that he hogged the microphone for a hell of a long time. FACT

Thirdly I was actually pleased to hear that Councillor Ady Green would be backing us 100% but I did not feel that I needed telling 7 (that's SEVEN) times which political party he was representing. Surely he is representing his constituency NOT his party. We voted him in to represent US. FACT

Fourthly, like you I too was at the meeting. Had I not been I would not have been so presumptious as to pass comment on it. FACT

Finally, the name "A Former Holme Bridger" came about in response to a post on this forum from village legend Bruce Walker in a thread titled "FISHING IN THE BECK" where he talked about the Holme Bridgers. Go read it as it is actually a quite interesting thread and as you were a young lad in the village at that time it may even invoke some long forgotten memories.
After moving from Holme Bridge I did not leave the village but continued to live in Sutton (like yourself) for 24 years before (like yourself) moving to a neighbouring village (in my case Cross Hills and in your case Glusburn).

So in response to your question "and if you like sutton so much mr a former home bridger why are you not still in the village then?" I would simply respond "I am still living as close as you are Mr Graham Smith"

A Former Holme Bridger
I too lived in Sutton for 24 years but as I am not quite as old as you I have only lived in Cross Hills for 17 years (that was typed with a smile on my face not a smirk so please do not take offence as we are actually both on the same side here).

Paul Wilkinson
Friday, October 17, 2008 11:40
I think we could all do with a bit of light relief at the moment!

The thread referred to above can be read here...

Fishing in the Beck

Graham - you could well have been a "Holme Bridger" too and might even be old mates.

Former Holme Bridger - I can see how new visitors to the site could interpret your posting name as someone who has moved away.
Glusburn (ex Suttoner)
Friday, October 17, 2008 11:41
ok no worries
Glad we are both on same side
Cheers Graham
Mr Green happened to be the only one on the planning committee who replied to a letter i sent to all 12 on the commitee regarding the Glusburn development
i was dissapointed with the lack of apperance from councillors barratt and beck who represent the Glusburn ward
might see you at skipton next wednesday and get you a pint in after the meeting(or maybe champaigne?)
Paul Wilkinson
Friday, October 17, 2008 11:48
Debbie - yes, it was nice to meet you too and also to put faces to several names! And congratulations on arranging the excellent Calendar coverage.
Friday, October 17, 2008 11:56
hi everyone. Just a small note, but it seems that a lot of people left the grounds of south craven school last night without knowing that there was a petition to sign, and therefore not having signed it, and also thinking that their attendance was a "waste of time" ( their words not mine). Their attendance was however crucial in showing their support.
Are there any other focal points where the petitions can be placed in Cross Hills and Glusburn for people to access too, and not just in Sutton Park Pavillion, as this affects all 3 villages, and not just Sutton?
Paul Wilkinson
Friday, October 17, 2008 12:26
I would think Peter Whitaker at G E Thornton butcher/deli (on Cross Hills Main Street at the junction with Holme Lane) would be more than happy to collect signatures in the shop.
Friday, October 17, 2008 12:30
There was a lot of people MISSING last night. The hall was not overcrowded. People were not allowed in because of health and safety regs because the hall was tiny !

How kind of you to employ what can only be described as "heavies" to police the doors! Was CDC worried that a little old lady might ask a question he couldn't answer!!

On the news it said that it was the biggest venue in the district! Actually it was the smallest hall available within the school. I have been in other meetings at the school with twice as many participants. If one of the larger halls had been used, rather than CDC thinking they were being clever by choosing such a small venue, there wouldn't have been hundreds of people standing outside performing for the cameras. So thank you CDC you helped our cause with the television cameras by helping to produce a huge crowd of very unhappy residents!!

Mark the word residents. Knowles-Fitton, down from his lovely safe house in the National Park, he thought it would be fine to build houses up there but "unfortunately" this isn't allowed by the government so we'll have to put up with it instead!! His idea of reality and democracy is more in line with Teletubby land. And where was Colin Walker? The word around the meeting was that he was a coward. Not able to face the music he left poor Sian Watson to face the crowd. She was not in a position to answer the questions put to her and she shouldn't have had to. I felt sorry for her. She didn't have any choice but to stand up in front of the crowd and was obviously very nervous of doing so.

And then there's Leeds. They have lots of green land around them but, guess what, all the edges of Leeds where houses could be built are next to rich areas. The council wouldn't want to go upsetting their own voters would they? Especially ones with money!

We are reliably informed that all these lovely new villagers will be going to Leeds each day by train from our new station. Funny that -there is no plan by the rail authority to build a new station at Cross Hills. This is only done so when they perceive a need to do so not when requested by local government. So without a station what is going to bring these new residents to the area?

As I see it - houses will be built on flood plain which there is not enough money coming from Leeds to stabilise it. The station won't be built until it's needed. Some roads will be closed for the "improvements" - ( I thought you might need a laugh at this point!!) and other roads will be so bunged up with existing traffic and construction traffic. All that is beautiful about this area will be bulldozed. The community diluted to the point of saturation. The kids who all know each other, look out for each other, and who are unable to get away with anything because someone will see them and know where to find their parents will have a massive influx of "streetwise" city kids!

I wonder how many people will consider an ex "green and pleasant" community congested with traffic and lacking amneities such as doctors and schools worthy of the hour and a half commute from Leeds. I know, I know they are going to travel from CDC's imaginary train station!!

Basically if I wanted to live in Leeds I would live in Leeds AND if people in Leeds wanted to live here they would already be doing it or thinking about it off their own backs. There is a lot of patronising going on around here by officialdom!!

At the end of the day we have lots of empty and for sale houses in craven. If there's no buyers for existing houses where are the buyers for these new houses?

All in all it means that during an already difficult financial time for house owners, house prices will plummet even further because of a glut of houses on the market.

And by the way Leeds City Council, I know there are empty houses in Leeds not least those monstrous city centre dockland dwellings the council allowed to be thrown up in the last few years that no-one wants to buy, isn't it time you got your own house in order before you decide to ruin a landscape and community that is loved and cared for by its residents. How much of Leeds can that be said of?
Friday, October 17, 2008 12:40
The email address to write to regarding Local Development Framework is:
Mr Bilbs
Sutton in Craven
Friday, October 17, 2008 13:08
Well said Monk!
Paul Wilkinson
Friday, October 17, 2008 13:46
Some great comments Monk, but I do think it was sensible for crowd control measures to be in place.
Friday, October 17, 2008 14:08
To anyone who is interested ....minutes of Parish and CDC meeting should be able to be found at Library....last time I looked (2006) they were incomplete....

Cheers Steve [smile]....
Friday, October 17, 2008 14:08
Yes we needed stewards but the guys they brought in were bruisers and I personally found their presence intimidating and I can only presume that was the intention.
Paul Wilkinson
Friday, October 17, 2008 14:22
Don't forget our man-mountain Basil had previously invited Lady Chairman to come and try when she threatened to throw him out of the Council Chamber in Skipton ;-)

I don't know who they were or where they came from but I thought they were professional, no-nonsense guys. I felt reassured by their presence. And let's face it, feelings were running very high. When I was leaving one of them opened the door, I thanked him, he smiled and bade me a cheery "Good night".

It also shows that CDC realize the magnitude of the campaign.
Friday, October 17, 2008 14:32
Was there anybody from Grimbleys (the developer) at last nights meeting??
Why should a developer be involved at this stage??

Who is Joe Bamford....?? Was he at last nights meeting....?? Does he publish on this site....??
Paul Wilkinson
Friday, October 17, 2008 14:41
Yes, a representative from GVA Grimley's Manchester office was there but he didn't get an opportunity to deliver his presentation as Chris Knowles-Fitton wound up proceedings after acknowledging there was unanimous opposition to the Growth Point bid. GVA Grimley's involvement at this stage is (as I understand it) as planning consultant.

Joe Bamford is a Glusburn resident who was previously a councillor. He was nominated as a spokesperson because he presented himself very well at the extraordinary council meeting in Skipton. I'm not aware that he has published anything on this forum.
Friday, October 17, 2008 15:00
a comment about the doorstaff:

as a fully trained door supervisor, i can attest we all look like that. must be genetic.

also, with the aggression shown at previous meetings (be it real or perceived) then it makes sense for security staff to be present.

in fact, it may be law. i know for licensed premises it has to be 1 supervisor for each 50 people.

Also, they were pretty non partisan, and stood up for 'the mob' when some guy at the back door tried denying he'd invoted everyone to the back door.
Friday, October 17, 2008 15:13
CDC minutes are also found on their website under committee meetings and if you use this address, please don't forget to look in the archives. They make interesting reading. Do download as much as possible. Links are very easy to remove!

or click this link...
committee meetings
Paul Wilkinson
Friday, October 17, 2008 15:33
Thanks John.

Alas it appears they've already pulled the Growth Point reports from the Policy section.

What does that tell us?
Friday, October 17, 2008 16:40
Webmaster - good call on Peter Whitaker, spoke to him today and will gladly house the petition. Spoke to Liz and she will drop him one off tomorrow morning.
Friday, October 17, 2008 18:12
To each and everyone of you.
WELL DONE and KEEP AT THEM. It is surprising just how much power and community spirit has been generated by this suggested invasion of the Sutton/Crosshills/Glusburn area. I have watched with interest as the story has unfolded so far and am proud to think that whilst I am not now directly involved as I left Sutton 52years ago, I can still associate with all those involved.
GO FOR IT AND WIN. Whatever you do, stick together.
Friday, October 17, 2008 18:34
Hi Liz, I await your call, if I am not in leave a message on the answer machine and I will ring you back.
Dawn - Sutton Pavilion
Friday, October 17, 2008 19:26
Hi Liz, yes I am intending going to next Wednesday's meeting, so I will take the petition with me. If for some reason I can't attend, I will make sure it gets there. There has been a good response to people coming in today, purely to sign the petition, so word has got around. I have also arranged for a petition to go up to Panache Hairdressers at Crosshills, but that may not be there until later tomorrow
Friday, October 17, 2008 20:28
Webmaster Id like to clarify something if I may. At the extraordinary meeting in Skipton it was not the lady chairman that threatended to throw me out of the meeting it was in fact Councillor Paul Wittaker her special friend! It was him I invited to personly remove me. Im not sure but I think that by law if numbers of a public event go over a certain level then security is a requirement. Since the meeting last night was expected to be a big one it was inevitable that wed see bruisers on the doors.

Also ... I recieved a call today from a lady called Jodie Walsh. She told me that she had been onto the Craven DC web site to make a complaint against councillors but alas the form to fill in and make a complaint was giving a page error! this was also the ase with other links related to delivering complaints. Also She told me that all the councillors photos and emails had been removed from the site too. I just went onto the web site and in fact can not find the page that lists all of our councillors anymore. Are myself and Jodie Missing something or has the council avoided a back lash here?
cath packer
Friday, October 17, 2008 20:40
hi liz, just call anytime will do all i can to help.
Alan W.
Friday, October 17, 2008 22:12
Just wanted to say that I was very proud to be involved in last nights meeting (even if I never actually got in) it's great to see a community pull together when the need arises. Well done to all concerned & hope to see you on Wednesday.

Ben W
Saturday, October 18, 2008 17:35

I've been following all of this development quite closely the past weeks and attended both the meeting in Skipton town hall and the meeting at South Craven school (at least the gathering outside part!). My parents and I were outraged that given the magnitude of people who wished to attend the meeting on Thursday that it wasn't postponed until a larger venue could be arranged (or even a PA system set up and the meeting held on the playing fields!!).

One thing that we asked on Tuesday and intended to pursue on Thursday is the legitimacy of building on greenfield sites - particularly given the council has recently put several large brownfield site projects on hold in Skipton itself due to funding issues. A subject they have clearly skirted around...

They also have been very vague in terms of the sheer growth in population that these developments will create (using the figures from the presentation and the CDC website I have calculated that there will be over 800 more children of school age in the area - where will they be taught?!?). Not to mention the fact that through the growth point scheme the government has awarded £3.7m to Swindon for agreeing to build 17,000 new homes. Where does the CDC figure of £20m for 12,000 homes come from?!?

I would be interested to know if there will be any sort of demonstration outside the town hall on Wednesday and would like to offer my time and resources to help organise such an event if not.


PS GVA Grimleys are a packager who gather the necessary information on behalf of CDC for a bid to be put to the government's growth point committee - not a developer as mentioned earlier.

PPS A council leader 2/3 of whose district lies within the national park saying publicly that he wants to abolish them... That's one path to early retirement!
Paul Wilkinson
Saturday, October 18, 2008 18:08
Hi Ben, thanks for your comments. We still need as many people as possible to attend the meeting at Skipton Town Hall next Wednesday (22nd) - not to demonstrate as such, but to show the strength of feeling amongst residents.

Paul Wilkinson
Sunday, October 19, 2008 15:17
This thread now closed, please post messages on the continuation thread N.O.D.I.S.C. II.

  Posting to the forum is de-activated due to lack of use.

  You are welcome to browse through posts but cannot add comments or start new topics.