Village Web Site Forum

Paul Wilkinson
Sunday, October 19, 2008 15:19
The main NODISC thread is a bit unwieldy with over 190 posts, so I propose we continue with this one as the campaign moves to its next focus - getting as many as possible to attend the Council Meeting at Skipton Town Hall on Wednesday 22nd October at 7.30pm, or possibly 7.00pm. If you can, please arrive sooner rather than later.
Monday, October 20, 2008 02:13
Paul, ( webmaster) I need the right info here. Is this to be an open meeting? I think it says it is on Steve Places Window if my memory serves me correctly. If so what time does the council meeting actualy begin? I think i remember somone saying that there would be other matters discussed during the session and that they will get to the Growth point bid at a later time. Im a bit hazy on this so if anyone can clarify Id be very greatful. Also, Paul Id like to congratulate you on a massive success with this web site. It has proved to be the saviour of Sutton so far!
Paul Wilkinson
Monday, October 20, 2008 06:54
I'm just providing a communication medium, credit goes to everyone who has stood up for what they believe in and done their bit to make a difference. The meeting is stated to start at 7.30pm.
Monday, October 20, 2008 10:19
The area of Craven District Council excluding the Yorkshire Dales National Park is approximately 142.86 square miles (or 370 km2).

How come they are trying to squeeze 2000+ houses into an area approx 4 sq mies....

And don't forget the pressure from Bradford Met to build in this area....
Monday, October 20, 2008 10:23
Sorry Tim - what do you mean by the pressure from Bradford Met to build in this area?
Paul Wilkinson
Monday, October 20, 2008 10:37
I've heard mutterings about this but don't have any specific details. I'd love to know more.
Monday, October 20, 2008 10:47
Sorry....rumours rumours ....ruminating rumours....but my paranoid mind knows it is true....
Monday, October 20, 2008 11:41
isn't it due to start at 6pm - going on till 7.20, when they will adjourn and hold the normal council meeting?
Paul Wilkinson
Monday, October 20, 2008 12:07
Phil - the full council meeting is currently stated to start at 7.30pm but there's a regular Policy Committee meeting in the Town Hall at 6.00pm which will be adjourned at 7.20pm.

It's at the full council meeting that councillors will vote on the issues we're campaigning against.
Monday, October 20, 2008 15:33
hi everyone. Just a note to say that i am given to understand from a reliable source that if the meeting on wednesday is likely to be as big an event as last thursday i.e. with the same volume of people all showing community spirit and standing up for what we believe in, that Calendar would more than likely be interested in following up on the story and giving us more badly needed publicity. To enable good air time coverage to take place we need lots of people there with banners and placards. The more people that can get there the better, (especially with banners) even if we don't all get into the meeting, the council cannot ignore masses of people and their collective opinions!!!! Let's show them we mean business!!!
Monday, October 20, 2008 16:17
the council cannot ignore masses of people and their collective opinions!!!!
Paul Wilkinson
Monday, October 20, 2008 16:24
Then we'll just have to scale up our operation!!!!
Monday, October 20, 2008 16:35
Am I missing something or is Stevo (20th Oct 2008 at 17:17) in favour of all the proposed development by saying "BUT THE GOVERMENT WILL thank god"?
Paul Wilkinson
Monday, October 20, 2008 16:38
It appears so, but he's entitled to his opinion!
Liz K
Monday, October 20, 2008 17:45
Thankfully, there are few with such opinions. Anyway, lets not let such a little damp squib spoil our resolve!
Webmaster, can you put a message (or whatever you do) on Facebook board - as many people as possible to come to the meeting at Skipton - start time 7.30pm - we have banners and placards - good chance TV will be there again. Hopefully all the people who have booked to speak will be able to get in there.
Basil - we need you in the crowd setting off the NODISC Chanting - we will see you there!
Monday, October 20, 2008 17:53
ha ha gettin under the skin liz
Monday, October 20, 2008 18:00
I live in Willow Way and was shocked to hear of these developments...

Would like to offer my help in the campaign to coordinate the media coverage (I work in Media and PR Management!)

Please email me:
Dawn - Sutton Pavilion
Monday, October 20, 2008 18:22
Liz, I sent a message to all the Facebook members last Friday about the meeting on Wednesday, there are now 782 members! Dawn
Monday, October 20, 2008 18:24
Evening all,

Attended the South Craven meeting last week, and will definately be at Skipton on Wednesday. Slightly confused as to what time it all kicks off though.

What time is everyone getting there??
Paul Wilkinson
Monday, October 20, 2008 19:12
The council meeting is scheduled to start at 7.30pm, so I'd suggest campaigners assemble outside Skipton Town Hall at about 7.00pm.

If the meeting start time is changed we will have at least 24 hours notice - if this is the case updates will be posted here and on Facebook.

It's still essential that as many people as possible attend.

If anybody still hasn't signed the petition, please try to do so before Wednesday lunchtime. Forms are available at Sutton Post Office, Sutton Park Pavillion, Thornton's Butchers, Anne Russell Florist, Panache Hair Salon/Barbers.
Monday, October 20, 2008 23:03
As far as i know this meeting on wed is going to be an open meeting? is that right? public can attend? If i get there early enough i think youl find me inside monitoring councillors!! but if not il be more than happy to be outside winding the crowd up!

Nice one Debbie, Calendars involment will put the pressure on again!
Liz K
Tuesday, October 21, 2008 07:27
Ha ha Stevo, if you read my last post properly, you'll see that you're not getting under my skin!!!! As webmaster says, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Have fun with yours.

Ric - we'll get in touch after Wednesday's meeting. As mentioned before, we all need to get together to decide and co-ordinate our approach to the LDF. Cheers.

Basil - meeting is in the same format as the one that was postponed from early October - they start at 7.30, there are officially 15 mins speaking from the public (those who have pre-booked a slot), and then public participation is closed - I doubt they will take questions/comments, etc from the rest of the public, i.e. don't think its an open forum like the Skipton & South Craven meetings. After that, I think they vote. See you either inside or outside Town Hall tomorrow - we have placards ready!
Tuesday, October 21, 2008 09:59
we'll try and be at the skipton meeting.

sorry not been much help since last wednesday but been a wee bit ill.

liz, if you still need anything doing that doesn't involve walking, let me know.
Tuesday, October 21, 2008 11:47
Stevo - out of curiosity and because this is a free site in which to voice your opinions - are you a village resident?. In what way do you support the housing plans?

Basil - may I suggest you stand outside for the next meeting and wind the crowd up - Calendar needs a character like you to get the message accross : )

Webmaster - is it me or has NODISC brought us all closer together and made us appreciate village life more?

Keep up the good work ( sorry Stevo ) : )
Paul Wilkinson
Tuesday, October 21, 2008 12:02
Hi Yvonne

Yes, community spirit really is flourishing - and it's primarily down to our local district councillor, Stephen Place, who stuck his neck out to represent his constituents and stood up for what he believes in.

Tuesday, October 21, 2008 16:44
Yvonne yes born and bred
why do i support ldf? the reason being that we are running out of houses and building space in the area thus even ex council houses going in the region of £150000, so becoming unafordable to the local young people .take for example a young couple trying to get on the housing ladder they are both on minnimum wages, out priced in thier own neighbourhood. it will not be a mass build but gradual over years, we have to go forward and progress. i know some of my comments have been flippant but many of yours seem over the top to me (just my
Tuesday, October 21, 2008 17:19

You need to be armed with the facts mate. The objection isn't the LDF, it's the Leeds Growth Point. Yes more housing needs to be built, but theres a vast difference between the two.

As for more affordable housing so local young people can buy homes within the villiage, that will come in time when the housing market drops back to an affordable level and not what it has risen to over the past 5 years.
Tuesday, October 21, 2008 17:36
why has it risen ? =not enough houses to meet demand
Tuesday, October 21, 2008 17:38
and what do they do in the meantime
Tuesday, October 21, 2008 17:47
I don't think it rose like it did purely down to supply and demand Stevo, yes demand has risen but not in such drastic measures to make prices rise as high as they did. In my opinion the rose for three reasons, banks greed, goverment trying to susatin something that they knew long term they couldn't and estate agents making higher profits.

Anyway thats by the by. Don't be fooled by the so called 'affordable' housing either Stevo, affordable to whom?, part rent part ownership schemes are not the way forward the cost is higher than you think. The offloading of council housing to housing assocation and right to buy schemes have put a lot more pressure on housing.

I also presume you don't have kids Stevo, if you do, does the fact there is no moeny being set aside for Schools intake being dramatically increased?, no there is not.

The Leeds Growth Point has to be dropped for the sake of the community and due to the fact the infastructure is not or will not be in place to cope with such a large population of the villages.
Tuesday, October 21, 2008 17:55
so persuming you are right on th 1st issue (and i dont think you are)
whats the answer to the 2nd ( and yes it is very relevant before you all dismiss it)
Liz K
Tuesday, October 21, 2008 19:05
Stevo - the whole point of N.O.D.I.S.C. is no OVER DEVELOPMENT in South Craven - we're not opposed to new dwellings full-stop, its the scale of the proposed developments that are the issue, and that the whole thing has been underhand and been going on without proper public consultation. The LDF (Local Development Framework) proposes slightly fewer houses than the LCGP bid (only(!!) 250/year for 18 years of which a "redefined" a.k.a.reduced area South Craven would cop for 26%).
This needs addressing also, other wise the semi-rural community in which we live wouldn't be semi-rural any longer, which is one of the reasons people choose to live here.

The Leeds City Growth Point bid is aimed at getting people working in Leeds living in Craven - this doesn't help the local residents at all.
Quite the reverse - more gridlocked roads, overcrowded schools, reduction in healthcare, loss of communities, etc, etc the list goes on - and of course, don't lets forget the "possibility" of a railway station for Cross Hills. Whoopy Doo!
Make no mistake, in every speech Mr Knowles-Fitton has given so far, the railway station is always referred to as "possible" - the only people who would benefit from a railway station are those who work in Leeds - thats if they're prepared to walk/cycle to the station from wherever they live within our 3 newly crowded villages, no sorry "Eco Town", as there'll only be enough parking spaces for 20 or so cars!!!!! We'd need to sort out a new forum thread for "Lift Shares to the Station".
The "possible" £20 million funding wouldn't be anywhere near enough to cover the costs of setting up the infrastructure to deal with another 1440 dwellings, roughly 2000 additional vehicles, approx 2000 additional children in the schools, approx 4000 additional people requiring healthcare. Do the sums, they just don't add up.

On the subject of affordable housing, you're quite right, there isn't any, and even though approx 40% is being proposed as affordable (and this applies under LDF as under LCGB bid), the discount (also approx 40%) would still leave the purchase of an average house out of reach of the average person. e.g. the new homes in Greenroyd Mill were averaging (when I last looked) about £200K- ish - this makes an "affordable" one £120K - I'm sorry, but the young couple on minimum wages that you refer to above still wouldn't be able to afford houses at this level. A 25 year mortage on this amount would be at least £750 per month (and that was at the low rate of 5.25% that we managed to get 6 years ago). Rates are considerably higher than that now. So, no, I don't have the answer, but I do know that these proposals aren't it!

See all you N.O.D.I.S.C.ers tomorrow ,-)
Tuesday, October 21, 2008 19:40
It concerns me that once the councillors are in the building (which will be before the crowds gather) they can ignore what's happening outside. How will they even know we're there?
Needs some thought and publicity from those inside, because hail rain or shine,
Paul Wilkinson
Wednesday, October 22, 2008 06:46
That's the spirit Norma! Weather forecast at the moment is cold but dry. And don't worry, I think they'll know we are there.

Wednesday, October 22, 2008 08:28
For info, the following is CDC's summary of the two recent public consultation meetings, taken from a report listed on CDC's website with the Agenda for tonight's meeting:

Adjourned Meeting of Council

22 October 2008

Summary of comments made and questions asked at public information meetings held on 14th and 16th October 2008 at Skipton Town Hall and South Craven School

Clarification is needed on the number of new homes to be built and the time period involved.

There is a third option – don’t do it, there’s been no public debate, all this development will ruin villages and the entrance to the Yorkshire Dales.

Will lose green open spaces and development on hillsides will impact on the landscape.

Don’t want to be a part of Leeds.

What feasibility studies have been undertaken to take the position to this stage and where was the publicity?

Before anything is done in South Craven a bridge needs to be built near Kildwick Crossing.

Building on the hillside to the east of Skipton (Rombalds / Elsey Croft) would lead to a significant increase in the risk of flooding – look at the history.

The culvert and drainage system for Skipton needs more investment and maintenance, remember the serious flooding incidents of the past.

Why no building in the Yorkshire Dales?

How accurate are the local needs housing figures, prove the demand.

When was the housing survey done?

The majority of facilities within Skipton are on the opposite side of town to where a lot of the development is proposed, what would be provided to go with the growth?

Our heritage is being sold down the river.

If development takes place more school places will be needed, drainage systems need upgrading, more health services, police etc will the growth bid pay for all these, if not who?

The Council hasn’t provided residents with enough information and has failed to consult. An apology is needed.

The Council had no public mandate to increase the number of houses to be provided from 250 to 300 each year.

What’s in it for the communities / what benefits do the communities get from 300 houses a year? Who will live in all these new houses, we don’t want to build houses for Leeds.

The proposed level of population growth has no precedent, Craven has never seen such growth in such a timeframe.

Is the growth proposed sustainable in the current climate?

What is planned in terms of development on green field sites, how can the Council allocate land for development within the greenbelt?

All this building will lead to the loss of green open space, amenity and have a negative impact on wildlife.
The Leeds funding will not deliver the level of infrastructure and community facilities / services needed, all you’re doing is building houses for commuters.
Development should be slow not accelerated.
Infrastructure is needed before more homes are built, don’t turn our villages into commuter conurbations.
We’ve heard lots of talk about building houses, what about jobs? Jobs need to be provided to go with the new housing.

How many houses have been built in the last 10 years?

How will the flood risks be alleviated / flooding prevented?

Where will the monies come from to pay for all the extra facilities ie. health, fire, education, drainage works, road works etc and when would they be made available?
How long has consultation been going on re growth point and when was the decision made to ask for it?
The Council is going to compulsory purchase homes to make way for some of the land to be developed, is this true?

The Council needs to tell people about what’s going on with allocation of land for building.

Is the Council going to allow building on the floodplain?

The road network within Crosshills, Glusburn and Sutton won’t cope with the additional traffic that would be generated by the number of houses proposed.

Will the drainage / sewage system cope, there will be an increased risk of flooding and the allocation of land for development on the floodplain is wrong.

This will lead to the creation of a small town resulting in the loss of identity for the villages of Crosshills, Glusburn and Sutton together with the loss of community spirit and sense of community that now exists.

Who decided all this (question in relation to LDF/RSS 250 houses per year in Craven including South Craven).

Would all new houses be affordable (in South Craven).

Sutton Parish Council previously asked to comment on sites but since completely ignored with advent of Growth Point.

Reference to a site previously allocated in Crosshills/Glusburn for potential development as a road – nothing has happened so why not use this site as already earmarked for development.

8 houses on one site would destroy a particular local company (Crosshills/Glusburn) – which acts against the purported employment (land development) aims of the SHELAA.

Told local infrastructure funding would be great but entirely dependent on Leeds City Region bid being successful.

Reference to the ‘No Development in South Craven’ – NO DISC website being set up indicating strength of local feeling/opposition.

Couple told [the speaker] that their existing property (in Sutton) is part of a potential development site according to the development proposals.

Council recently said that there would be consultation but since then you’ve tried rushing through.

Should build on brown-field sites / convert old mills not loss of countryside.

What about the extra roads and schools that would be required.

Growth Point status seem to redefine South Craven (below) as Crosshills, Glusburn and Sutton ie shrinkage of South Craven but would the LDF proposals of 250 houses / year with 26% of houses in South Craven be for the wider definition of the area or the shrunken area.
Only 25% of Councillors are based in South Craven.

Crosshills Police Station is going to be closed.

Green Lane planning application for 70 houses rejected – Council now changing its mind, does that mean those 70 will be replaced on the SHELAA.
Wednesday, October 22, 2008 10:24

" 7.30pm onwards - Main Hall - Council Meeting (preparation from 5pm). We expect the public to attend in their hundreds. If that happens, only around 200 will be allowed into the Town Hall and the rest will be directed to the car park at the rear of the Annex, where a public announcement system will be located."

It seems important to me that a presence is seen at the front of the town hall too!!!
Wednesday, October 22, 2008 14:26
Webmaster, that is a fantastic summary, it must have taken time to compile! I will be printing that out and sending it to the council as my list of questions about recent events in order to gain a written answer!
Looking forward to seeing everyone tonight! Make plenty of noise everyone!
Paul Wilkinson
Wednesday, October 22, 2008 14:33
Hi Basil - CDC compiled the list, it's on their web site under the Agenda for tonight's meeting. I thought I'd reproduce it here as they seem to have been having problems with their web site.
Wednesday, October 22, 2008 14:40
Dear Webmaster,

In your summary you stated "The Council had no public mandate to increase the number of houses to be provided from 250 to 300 each year."

After careful reading of the LD framework documentation I can state that the 250 houses is an incorrect figure. The actual figures for construction under LDF are 200 a year for the whole area with an additional 50 houses which can be built but ONLY IF LOCALLY REQUIRED. In other words if the local population needs them more houses can be built. Leeds Growth Point does not meet the criteria for local.

So in conclusion it is an increase from 200 to 300 houses each year. A 50% increase in the number of developments built if Leeds Growth point happens over what would normally happen in this area.

Don't forget to be visible at the front of the Town Hall tonight. The CDC wants to push all people who don't get into the meeting round the back and are providing a sound system for us. I think people need to be visible at the front so that Skipton sees what's happening.

See my posting above with a direct quote sent to CDC staff this morning by a member of senior management.

Good luck tonight!
Paul Wilkinson
Wednesday, October 22, 2008 14:52
Hi Monk. I saw your post and wondered how it originated, thanks for sharing and many thanks to your source. The summary is taken from a CDC report, it's a compilation of questions and comments that CDC put together from the two public consultation seminars.

I'm sure the placards will be visible front of house!
Wednesday, October 22, 2008 15:22
Dear Webmaster,

A nod is as good as a wink to a blind man!!

You are doing a stirling job - don't thank me - you are the one co-ordinating this great site.

Wednesday, October 22, 2008 15:25
And I realised that it wasn't your wording in the summary but I just wanted to state that CDC keeps saying 250 houses a year.....everyone else keeps stating 250 a year but official CDC LDF documents state only 200 a year.

I just wanted to stop incorrect figures rolling on and gathering any kind of credence. They are making out it is only a small increase but it's huge.

It would be good if they could be straight with us!

Placards at the ready !!
Helen (crosshills
Wednesday, October 22, 2008 15:28
Hi got my signs ready for tonight I couldnt see last week Im only small But my signs will be seen tonight. Lets make it a great turn out.
Paul Wilkinson
Wednesday, October 22, 2008 15:34
Way to go, Helen! You don't need to be tall to be a big person!!
Liz K
Wednesday, October 22, 2008 20:56
A small victory I think, but the LCGP bid doesn't appear to have gone away completely, although as we were outside, it wasn't entirely clear. We need to keep up our efforts on the LDF and the 200/250 houses and 26% allocation. Handed out quite a few fliers on this tonight, and have some more so will post them around.

Just like to make one thing clear though about why I didn't speak tonight. I emailed all the councillors and told them what I wanted to say (my "speech" below) - I also said I didn't expect to get in the building as I expected there would be too many people in the hall. I received an e-mail back from the Chairman telling me of the revised motion, and that in view of the motions, she would ask speakers if they had any further information. She also apologised about the lapse in consultation and listening, points which they will do their best on in future. I did not receive an e-mail from Councillor Knowles-Fitton to tell me that my name would be on the door - perhaps it was sent after I had left work. I'll let you know tomorrow!

Just for interest, this was my "speech":
"I speak on behalf of the majority of the ordinary folk of Sutton, Cross Hills and Glusburn. I don't need to remind you of all the objections and concerns that have been raised by the people of South Craven - I'm sure you have all recognised how strong our feelings are on the thorny issue of overdeveloping our three villages. We do not wish to be "regenerated" under the Leeds City Growth Point bid.
We do not wish the South Craven area to be redefined, and reduced in area, from its current definition within the Craven District. Quote from the LGCP bid report by Mr Walker "We need to define South Craven, it would appear the South Craven being referred to is Glusburn and Sutton Wards but South Craven as part of Craven District is Glusburn, Sutton, Cowling and Are Valley with Lothersdale".
We do not wish to have 26% allocation of any Craven District annual housing requirement, be it 300 (LCGP) or 250 (LDF) dwellings. This number will have a significant and devastating effect on our 3 communities.
We implore you to reject the LCGP bid tonight, it would be immoral for it to be pushed through, when it is clearly not what the people of South Craven (or Skipton) want.
We ask that you revisit the LDF employing clear and full consultation with the people of the entire Craven district. We ask that you make the consultation process understandable to ordinary folk, and that you clearly explain the importance of our involvement in the process, i.e. how the information we supply will be used, and how it might affect us if we don't take the opportunity to have our say.
I wanted to quote a couple of lines that I'd read in your Corporate Plan 2008-2011, but it seems to have disappeared from the website! However, I have found one point in another area of your website which I recall formed part of your strategy:
LISTENING AND COMMUNICATING: Involving, consulting and communicating with our customers and residents.
I think this whole experience has demonstrated that this hasn't happened. We need to have the trust and confidence restored between Craven District Council and its electorate. The feeling of "us and them" barrier which is currently apparent needs to be removed - the only way this can happen is be effective communication. Please listen to our voices and consider our opinions when making decisions that affect us all so significantly."

Keep up the good work all, we need to continue with the impetus.
Graham Wild
Wednesday, October 22, 2008 21:08
Liz, Sorry couldnt make it tonight due to work. So did the vote go in favour of abandoning the LCGP?? I agree, we have the momentum and we need to keep it going on the LDF front. Lets hope the council have got the message, the general public will not be taken for fools who can just be ignored any more and they need to be on there guard on future votes.
Paul Wilkinson
Wednesday, October 22, 2008 22:21
Agenda Item 5 was replaced with the following recommendation:

(1) That the Council does not pursue the Leeds City Region Growth Point draft Programme of Development any further.

(2) That Members review the housing figures for the Craven District contained in the Regional Spatial Strategy and the proposed geographical distribution of housing across the

(3) That, because it would be a tragedy to totally dismiss the opportunity of funding which South Craven so desperately needs, the Leader of the Council will write to the Housing Minister to see if there is any other way that funding might be obtained.

Amendments were made to the above, and then the amendments were amended. Then the Councillors voted on the amendments and unfortunately did not approve an unambiguous motion to withdraw completely from Growth Point Status. That would have been a win.

Then all but one of the Councillors voted in favour of the three points above, albeit with slightly different wording on points (1) and (3). I was outside in the car park at the back and haven't got exact details, but the reference to "Programme of Development" was removed from point (1) and the scope of point (3) was broadened.

To my mind, this left things a bit woolly in relation to South Craven's Growth Point Status in the eyes of Leeds City Region. I think we already are a "Growth Point" and the original motion was to allow things to move to the next stage. We'll have to wait and see what the minutes say when they appear on CDC's website.

It was a shame the debate descended to political point scoring at times, but some of the mud they were slinging was of great interest. I will try and source some specific details.

I have some thoughts on Councillor Knowles-Fitton's ill-formed tirade against Councillor Place at the end, but I'll save them for another time.

Once again, many thanks to all the people who have worked so hard for what they believe in. Public opinion is a force to be reckoned with!

We still have a long way to go, so - as Liz said - keep up the good work!

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