Paul Wilkinson
webmaster
Thursday, June 9, 2011 12:53 |
Land at Sutton Clough for sale
I've just noticed the following on the Parish Council's website...
LAND AT SUTTON CLOUGH FOR SALE
Six and a half acres, part of Sutton Hall Estate and adjoining Sutton Clough was conveyed to Sutton-in-Craven Parish Council in 1933 and it is managed by the council on behalf of the public. 9.85 acres of adjoining woodland has now been put on the market for sale. The Parish Council would like to preserve this woodland and would welcome the opportunity to maintain these woods if someone would be able to purchase it on behalf of the village.
More details are available at the Windle Beech and Winthrop site. Scroll down the page to LOT 3...
"Traditional deciduous woodland known as Lumb Cough Wood. There are the remains of an old kiln which is a Scheduled Monument within the parcel."
Offers over £20,000 - less than £10 per villager!
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Camille Askins
Sutton-in-Craven
Thursday, June 9, 2011 20:17 |
I thought it was owned by the village already - obviously I was wrong.
If we don't buy it then could the new owner prevent access? |
Brenda Whitaker was Grime
Queensland Australia
Saturday, June 11, 2011 23:42 |
hi folks, I have been watching this forum item for 3 days hoping someone other than the web master would leap in and offer more of an insight or suggestion about this parcel of land. In the absence of any comment do I assume some investigation is going on in response to Paul's information and Camille's pertinent question.
I note it is one of three parcels along that area. Lumb Clough Wood is not known to me as a separate parcel to Sutton Clough, but, as a child growing up there over 50 years ago we wouldn't even give ownership a thought. The Clough has always been just ...The Clough, a place of play, walk and wonder. I will continue to watch this spot with interest. - Oh - and I am willing to offer my ten quids worth!! |
Brenda Whitaker was Grime
Queensland Australia
Sunday, June 12, 2011 02:53 |
Hi folks – I sort of promised myself not to get involved in this topic, but, I have looked at the map on the website Paul has linked in his original posting, this shows the boundaries of the parcel of land and I find it also includes the waterfall and the stepping stones, both such a vital part of The Clough as I remember it.
There is a song with words something like:- you don’t know what you’ve got ‘til its gone… Well I have that sort of feeling about this bit of land.
My husband is from Christchurch and we have watched with increasing sadness and horror as the heart of that city has crumbled and the effect it has had on family and friends who have been directly affected. Similarly we are now in Queensland have watched the devastation of floods and the effect on those who have lost homes and land, not to mention loved ones in both cases.
I am not suggesting that Sutton has or may have a similar devastating occurrence and perish the thought, but, rather that people of the village consider that what is now accepted to be here without thought, may be lost to you and your children, because, it looks possible that this may occur by a simple sale, not a natural disaster. The ongoing effect of this could be very very sad.
It would seem that the council is crying out for help, but it would also appear that there is a grave danger of this large part of The Clough being lost to the village and the enjoyment of you all and those who come after.
I would like to urge those of you who passionately love the village to look into this and at least start to understand what is afoot. For me, I have been away from the village since 1961 and should not really get involved, but the thought of it just makes me sad.
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Paul Longbottom
Sutton
Sunday, June 12, 2011 08:48 |
As far as I am aware, the public land in the Clough ends at the top iron (hooped) bridge at the junction of the footpaths leading to Bankfoot (right) and the Ellers (left). With regard to refusing access, there is another footpath that continues straight forward past the smelt mill, so I presume access would still have to be allowed. This path is marked on the sale map provided by the estate agents. |
Liz Kildunne
NODISC
Sunday, June 12, 2011 18:00 |
Yes, count us in for any co-operative attempt to buy it. Should we get some legal advice as to how to go about it? - 2,000 villagers at £10 each might be pushing it from a conveyancing point-of-view, but what about 200 at £100 each or even 20 at £1000 each? (not that I have a spare thousand kicking around ,-) ). Or maybe even a fundraiser to see if the entire village would donate a tenner a house, for the PC to own it? Seems like a good cause to me. |
Stephen Bielby
Sutton in Craven
Tuesday, June 14, 2011 11:27 |
You can put me down for £10 - if my 6 numbers come up on Saturday Ill make a promise to buy the lot.
Hope this helps - in a small way! |
E Willis
Sutton in Craven
Tuesday, June 14, 2011 11:54 |
I would happily pay the £10 too maybe people need to be made aware of this Im guessing most people dont know the land is for sale. |
Paul Wilkinson
webmaster
Tuesday, June 14, 2011 12:24 |
Consensus appears to be that it would be a good thing to acquire the land. If I hear of any developments I'll post details here, alternatively check the news page on the Parish Council's website.
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Janet Hargreaves
Harrogate
Tuesday, June 14, 2011 19:02 |
I used the footpaths daily when I was a child and feel that they should remain in the ownership of the Village, however in todays world what are the insurance implications if someone falls off one of the steep drops/waterfalls or gets hurt by a falling tree which hasn't been 'managed'? Last time I was in the clough I thought the trees were about ready to be deforested (if that's the proper term). If I remember correctly this was last done in the 50s?
If it is viable to set up a Cooperative I'd be willing to chip in a £10 too. |
Yvonne Wiseman
Sutton
Tuesday, June 14, 2011 19:27 |
Hi,
Is it worth putting up some notices in the village asking for views on the sale of the land? Sutton Fun Day would be an ideal opportunity too.
I will happily contribute to buying the land and feel lots more people will too. |
Brenda Whitaker was Grime
Queensland Australia
Tuesday, June 14, 2011 21:42 |
Is there a web reader in the village, with the appropriate knowledge and qualifications, who is prepared to have a preliminary look at the whole situation starting with the reason for the sale, - like why now? - villagers buying it jointly and other implications such as those wisely suggested by Janet. The council seems to state it is willing to "preserve and maintain" so what does that mean exactly?
It is very encouraging to have such support to start it off - well done everyone and a good idea to get the exposure at Funday. |
Janet Hargreaves
Harrogate
Wednesday, June 15, 2011 07:54 |
I don't know who might want to do this but if the Woodland Trust Charity were consulted they might be able to give valuable input? |
Paul Wilkinson
webmaster
Wednesday, June 15, 2011 11:19 |
I understand the Parish Council is in contact with the Woodland Trust. The Trust is providing ongoing advice but cannot help with the purchase of the land.
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David Laycock
Wednesday, June 15, 2011 12:49 |
Hi all from Aus.
This is a down right shame I will help with 100 ($250) if you can get things organised. |
Janet Hargreaves
Harrogate
Wednesday, June 15, 2011 16:07 |
I'm with Camille here.
Please can someone explain it so I understand, who is actually selling the Clough and why do the Villagers need to buy it?
If the Parish Council bought the Clough from Sutton Hall wasn't it the Villagers money used to purchase it therefore the Villagers already own the Clough?
If my logic is wrong - As I understand it, the Council is made up of representatives of the Parish who act on behalf of the people they represent, therefore if the Parish own the Clough, don't they need authorisation from the people they represent before they can sell this land? Did they get this?
I feel they are selling something to the Village that the villagers have already purchased?
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Paul Wilkinson
webmaster
Wednesday, June 15, 2011 16:32 |
This isn't a qualified answer, just my understanding of things.
There seems to be some confusion in that some people think it's the existing "Clough" that needs to be bought back. This isn't the case and access to the Clough isn't under threat. In 1933 the builder who bought the Sutton Hall estate donated the parcel of land we know as Sutton Clough to the village. This is maintained by the Parish Council. As it was donated to the village, villagers have never "bought" it as such, although we do pay for maintenance via the precept on our council tax.
The land currently for sale ADJOINS the existing Clough, so acquiring it would expand the area available to everyone and safeguard the woodland and historical remains therein.
I've no idea who owns the land, why they are selling it or why they have chosen this time to put it up for sale.
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Camille Askins
Sutton-in-Craven
Saturday, June 18, 2011 06:50 |
I'm all for putting some money in and expanding the area that everyone can use.
From what I can see of the map on the agent's site, the land for sale is at the top of the Clough. Is this land that is currently not in public use or is it used by us, but not actually owned by us? |
Maurice Atkinson
Keighley
Saturday, June 18, 2011 07:46 |
That's what it looks like to me too Camille....I've been in the "for sale" area many times in my dim and distant youth. Let the moths out of your purses Suttoners! |
Nikki Barrett
Sutton
Saturday, June 18, 2011 15:22 |
Count me in for a donation, I am happy to contribute more than £10, Just wish I could pay the lot for the village!! If anyone is willing to start a 'collection' I am happy to help with it, but can't take on the whole project - let me know if you need any help.
We must save this area for the village!
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Ang Mason
Sutton
Sunday, June 19, 2011 08:40 |
Count me in for a donation too, I too would be willing to contribute more to save this land and I would be willing to help if a collection was started, let me know if you need some help!
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Clerk
Monday, June 20, 2011 09:21 |
Following advice from the Woodland Trust, information from the Chartered Surveyors, legal advice, contact from residents directly to the Parish Council and noting the comments above an Extraordinary Meeting of the Council is being held to update members and determine the best way forward.
Following the meeting I will place an update on the forum.
Thank you |
Janet Hargreaves
Harrogate
Monday, June 20, 2011 13:18 |
I am in total agreement that the woodland should be a public area available to all but it probably already is under the Right to Roam.
Just a thought though - is it really worth anything near £20k? Is it worth anything to anyone other than the 'villagers'? |
Paul Wilkinson
webmaster
Monday, June 20, 2011 13:39 |
As I understand it, the "Right to Roam" (as defined in the The Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000) doesn't apply to privately owned woodland unless it's specifically dedicated as "Open Access" by the landowner.
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Barry Newlove
Costa Blanca, Spain
Monday, June 20, 2011 17:56 |
I too would also like to make a donation to the purchase of the land that is for sale if it thought that it would benefit the village. |
Paul Wilkinson
webmaster
Friday, June 24, 2011 13:08 |
An extraordinary meeting of the Parish Council has been arranged for Wednesday 6th July at 6.30pm in the C of E School, details on the events page.
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Julian Hide
Sutton
Wednesday, June 29, 2011 10:13 |
A quick look at NYCC's online mapping for public rights of way shows the existing footpath that continues from the bridge up to the stepping stones and then either right, up to West Lane opposite Crag Nook Cottage or straight on to the waterfall and then out onto West Lane higher up, or left up to Wood Top. Presumably any purchaser would have to permit these paths to continue in public use. On the sale, I can't imagine the land to have an economic value - it's far too steep to be of use for forestry and vehicular access is nigh on impossible. One wonders if, in fact, anyone would be at all interested in buying it. I'm all for it passing to Parish Council ownership and am quite happy to chip in. Do we not currently have a philanthropist in the village?! |
Paul Wilkinson
webmaster
Wednesday, June 29, 2011 11:00 |
I don't know about any philanthropists but yes, there's a legal requirement to maintain access to defined footpaths.
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Tim Armsby
glusburn
Saturday, July 2, 2011 08:23 |
Lets say that this hangs in the balance pending the 'meeting', but I'd be glad to chip in on this project.
It's a bit of the Clough that the more adventurous of us have walked regularly and still do. It is not of commercial value. It's community resource that needs to be secured. The statutary footpath requirement 'should' keep it useable for all, but why take the chance that it 'has no value' to a potential property owner when in effect it is a very small amount of money when spread amongst us all. It is very steep and has no direct vehicle access, but is a very pretty quiet space [for the more intrepid].
Paul, I'm Tim from Nodisc....glad to see you are still webmaster. |
Paul Wilkinson
webmaster
Saturday, July 2, 2011 23:15 |
Hi Tim, good to hear from you and thanks for the support!
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John Daley
Sutton in Craven
Thursday, July 7, 2011 18:45 |
I have just returned from the special public meeting called by The Parish Council to discuss the land for sale at the top of the Clough. After open discussion a show of hands at the meeting gave a small majority in favour of the Council acquiring the land. I was very surprised though at the number of people who voiced opinions against such a proposal and to his credit the chairman put his cards on the table at the beginning of the meeting saying he too was against purchasing the land.
The chairman whilst acknowledging that a number of people have all ready offered financial support he felt that a turn out of only approximately 40 people at the meeting indicated a measure of indifference within the village. Is he right?
What may be holding people back though is the question of how to pay for the land if we wish to acquire it for the village. To put it into perspective, whilst £20,000 is lot of money, a one year only increase of £12 per household in your council tax bill would be all that is required. Is this too high a price for securing this highly valued public amenity to be enjoyed by future generations as we have enjoyed it?
So if you are in agreement, to a purchase by The Parish Council on behalf of the village for the village let your voices be heard in support.
John Daley
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Julian Hide
Sutton
Friday, July 8, 2011 07:22 |
Unfortunately I was unable to attend the meeting and am a little surprised that the turnout was so low. I think that if a decision is taken by the council to buy the land, John's suggestion of a one year increase of £12 is a good one - £1 per month is negligible. However, I don't think the council should rush in at the asking price, £3076 per acre seems a bit on the high side for the type of land on offer - it's hardly productive agricultural land is it? |
Janet Hargreaves
Harrogate
Friday, July 8, 2011 11:31 |
I too think £20k is much too high for woodland of little or no economic value. Anyone who considers paying this sort of price needs to walk the woods to see what they are getting for their money. I know these woods well! |
Maurice Atkinson
Keighley
Friday, July 8, 2011 14:47 |
Did we find out who is actually selling this land? |
John Daley
Sutton in Craven
Saturday, July 9, 2011 09:42 |
I understand the seller is Mr John Charnbury |
Camille Askins
Sutton-in-Craven
Saturday, July 9, 2011 17:04 |
Maybe the reason the turnout for the meeting was low was because people didn't realise that it was a public meeting. It was advertised as one for the Parish Council. I think that a lot of people, if they knew about the meeting at all, may have thought that it was a closed meeting. I wasn't sure, from the information that was available.
What's the next step? |
Joan Hartley
Sutton
Monday, July 11, 2011 11:15 |
I am glad that some one else thinks that the meeting was for the Parish council only. If it had been advertised as a public meeting I also feel alot more people would have attended |
David Dear
Sutton in Craven
Monday, July 11, 2011 16:53 |
I don't see way the village is getting in such a state of emergency, about this land for sale in the Clough.
1st of all the land is worthless once brought, it can't be built on due to the flooding, and also due the position of the land.
2nd of all if the land was brought, people are forgetting about the cost to maintain the land, having tress cut back, maitaining the bridges, and footpaths.
3rd of all, I can't see the village being happy about Johns suggestion of having a £12 people increase in council tax to purchase a piece of land, which is way over priced. Fair enough it's only £12.
There is going to be no benefit to the village buying this land, and this is what I can't understand, with all these comments on how it will benefit the village, and the area
I do want to say that this is my opion i'm posting of here. |
Paul Wilkinson
webmaster
Monday, July 11, 2011 18:27 |
Nobody is getting into a "state of emergency". An opportunity has arisen to acquire some additional woodland adjacent to the existing Clough.
Have you ever enjoyed time spent in Sutton Park or wandering through the Clough? These amenities were donated to the village in the past and many people have greatly appreciated them, all at no cost (well, except for an amount on the precept for maintenance). We now have a chance to preserve a woodland for future generations to enjoy. The value of many things can't be measured in financial terms.
(This is just my opinion too.)
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Maurice Atkinson
Keighley
Monday, July 11, 2011 21:39 |
@Paul---mine too! |
Brenda Whitaker was Grime
Queensland Australia
Tuesday, July 12, 2011 00:35 |
And - the council stated at the outset and shown in the first posting....
"the Parish Council would like to preserve this woodland and would welcome the opportunity to maintain these woods if someone would be able to purchase it on behalf of the village." |
Nikki Barrett
Sutton
Tuesday, July 12, 2011 21:39 |
Well said Paul - I agree with you completely! :o)
Also agree with Joan and Camille up too - I had no idea about the meeting either.
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Yvonne Wiseman
Sutton
Wednesday, July 13, 2011 05:10 |
I totally agree with Paul! |
